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There's No Painless Way Out

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Uncle Sam's bills of almost $4tn per year relative to his income of just over $2tn means that he does what most American's do - he borrows money - and it is this simple fact that underpins the reasoning that there is no painless way out of the mountain of debt that we have amassed over the last few decades. While none of this is new, the straightforward nature of this video's message makes it hard to argue, from anything other than an ivory tower, that this supposed self-sustaining print-and/or-borrow-fest can go on forever. Paying off your mortgage with your credit card remains the clearest analogy of what is occurring and while the Mutually Assured Destruction case is made again and again for why the analogous credit-card-providers will never halt our limit, it seems increasingly clear that the fiat money fiasco has switched regimes to chaos rather than the apparent nominal calmness of the great moderation.

 

 

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Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:07 | 2317301 idea_hamster
idea_hamster's picture

Suicide is painless -- M*A*S*H.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:15 | 2317319 HD
HD's picture

Great reference mate. Makes me feel old. Damn old.

 

Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
the pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...

[chorus]:

That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make
all our little joys relate
without that ever-present hate
but now I know that it's too late, and...

[Chorus]

The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
so this is all I have to say.

[Chorus]

The only way to win is cheat
And lay it down before I'm beat
and to another give my seat
for that's the only painless feat.

[Chorus]

MASH
The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...

[Chorus]

A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
'is it to be or not to be'
and I replied 'oh why ask me?'

'Cause suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you choose.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:18 | 2317325 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Paying off your mortgage your constituency with your their childrens' credit card remains the clearest analogy of what is occurring...

I fixed it.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:20 | 2317335 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

You sure did. One question: Howcome unborn children already have credit cards?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:23 | 2317346 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

It's called a Social Security Card.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:04 | 2317445 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

It's called a Servile Serf Card

Fixed it.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 17:57 | 2317733 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

And who gets the debt when the baby is never born? So it's paying the mortgage with someone else's kids' credit card!

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 01:43 | 2318652 natty light
natty light's picture

I have seen on RV's a bumper sticker that says: WE ARE SPENDING OUR KIDS INHERITANCE

Isn't that cute. I have wanted to get a Sharpie and add to it: ...AND THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:26 | 2317352 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

It's a child cardholder not a choice?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:08 | 2317455 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

lol.

Hey - How the heck did you get the strikethrough text to work?  It never displays correctly for me.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:51 | 2317575 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/donate

Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 13:54 | 2319971 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

In Soviet America, unborn baby has Credit Card.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 19:23 | 2317933 Amish Hacker
Amish Hacker's picture

Or think of it this way: when the government sees a hungry dog, it cuts off the dog's tail and feeds it to him.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 22:26 | 2318305 Woodyg
Woodyg's picture

Actually it's paying off Their mortgage with My credit card.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:21 | 2317341 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

First thing that popped into my mind upon reading the headline.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:54 | 2317586 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Pain?

"I'll just sit and grin, the money will roll right in."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeUriaEc49I

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 18:40 | 2317837 phungus_mungus
phungus_mungus's picture

Am I the only one who is tired of all this bullshit and justs wants whatever is going to happen to hapen so we can get it the fuck over with already!!!??!?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 19:15 | 2317911 Thecomingcollapse
Thecomingcollapse's picture

No.. NO.. I'm ready already!!  This waiting is driving me crazy!

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 23:35 | 2318447 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Kick the can has allowed me to get in a better position to weather the coming storm.  I'll take as many prepping days as I can get.  When this country goes "cold turkey" off the reserve currency drug, it will be a living hell.  Extend and pretend is a preppers best friend.

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 07:26 | 2318844 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

I've been ready for 3 years.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 20:30 | 2318066 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Hope & Change. 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:08 | 2317302 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

Hi

My name is Dow Jones and I am a Bernankaholic.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:34 | 2317372 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

...it has been 126 microseconds since my last sub-penny.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:08 | 2317305 Carl Spackler
Carl Spackler's picture

Paying your mortgage with yourd credit card...using unsecured credit to pay down secured credit.

Only in America...and Europe.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 17:59 | 2317737 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

The ones who paid off their student loans before the bubble burst, did so by taking non-existant equity out of their houses. Mortgage debt is dischargeable in bankruptcy!

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 23:37 | 2318455 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

You didn't see that advice on Suzie Orman or Jim Cramer's shows.

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 00:01 | 2318508 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

A new wrinkle (actually, an aspect not utilized as much as it could be) to the student loan problem:

http://www.thenation.com/article/167142/colleges-withhold-transcripts-grads-loan-default

Colleges Withhold Transcripts From Grads in Loan Default
Thu, 04/05/2012 - 01:39 | 2318648 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Wow, talk about supplying justification for defaulting on a debt...

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:10 | 2317310 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

could we have a video-for-dummies just like this for The Feds' derivatives and other shadow toxic assets? 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 19:33 | 2317953 Chump
Chump's picture

No, because upon hearing the words Federal Reserve, your average American's eyes begin to glaze over.  Add a long word like "derivative" into the mix, and you've lost them just like that.  Start talking about "shadow banking" or "toxic assets" and you'd have a comatose patient on your hands.

No, this video is perfect, even for my nearly braindead co-workers.  No fervent voice rising in pitch to emphasize points, no flashy explosions or sensationalist graphics.  Just simple, straightforward, and easily understandable.  And the best part is that it leads the viewer to the direct conclusion that a global financial collapse is unavoidable, lets that point sink in, and then allows the viewer to draw his or her own conclusions.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:11 | 2317311 Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

'Massive Wealth Destruction' Is About to Hit Investors: Faber

"Somewhere down the line we will have a massive wealth destruction that usually happens either through very high inflation or through social unrest or through war or credit market collapse," he said. "Maybe all of it will happen, but at different times."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46923999

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:32 | 2317369 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Or all at the same time.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:20 | 2317484 Silveramada
Silveramada's picture

coming soon: ALL OF THE ABOVE

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:35 | 2317524 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Surely this begs the question, how fucking long can the boy cry wolf? Did the wolf lose his teeth?

I am about ready to say fuck this, and go on a spending spree. WTF do I have to lose? Seriously, can anyone tell me what the heck I have to lose? Maybe I can get a bailout.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 23:40 | 2318462 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Capitulation?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 21:09 | 2318147 silverdragon
silverdragon's picture

Probably a good time to stock up on lots of physical silver.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 23:40 | 2318463 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Brass, lead and copper will be more practical.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:11 | 2317316 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

I prefer the other cartoons where the bear shits himself in the end.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:41 | 2317396 bluebare
bluebare's picture

I resemble that remark.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:14 | 2317320 Hal n back
Hal n back's picture

forever is a long time

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:17 | 2317326 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

"no painless way out of the mountain of debt"

Corrected it for you  "no way out of the mountain of debt"

Dude, you are forgetting the $118 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:53 | 2317423 Hansel
Hansel's picture

No painless way out for who?  Federal Reserve don't give a shit.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:09 | 2317459 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

...Until they do.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:15 | 2317469 zebrasquid
zebrasquid's picture

$118 trillion unfunded liabilities is no problem...  Millenials will just reject and cancel those as liabilites.  Once their politicians are in control -- poof, granddad's soc.sec. and medicare are cancelled.

Lots of pain, though...but you either do the bypass or you die.  Most people will opt for the bypass, and majority rules!

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:18 | 2317327 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Paying your mortgage with your credit card?! Shit, how about not paying your mortgage at all and just staying put for free. Its the latest rage, and more and more people are hopping on the gravy train. The jails are full, the system is imploding, and Homeland Security hasn't got their 450 million hollowpoints order filled yet, so you might as well take your mortgage money, fill the garage up with beer and wait for the NFL to come around again.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:20 | 2317333 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

I tried that with my rent money and it didn't work.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:48 | 2317361 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Renting is different. You could get beaten black and blue with a wiffleball bat if you piss your landlord off. The banksters on the other hand are just a bunch of pussies who can only mail you paper threats. Use them to light your charcoal up with when its burger time again. ; )

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:27 | 2317500 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Pink Slime indeed.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:30 | 2317362 Hippocratic Oaf
Hippocratic Oaf's picture

8

I agree with most of what you say 'cept the prisons aren't full....municipalities are letting prisoners walk/early release due to cost cutting measures. So, that may actually fuel the drama knowing more and more shit is walking the streets.

Have a nice day!

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:18 | 2317330 lunaticfringe
lunaticfringe's picture

Exceedingly bullish!

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:20 | 2317332 Scalaris
Scalaris's picture

Vicious cycle.

Debt > Monetization > Debt > Monetiz...

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:26 | 2317354 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I'll bet Jon Corzine can make the debt just disappear.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:34 | 2317374 blu
blu's picture

I don't think JPMorgan wants it though.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:26 | 2317355 Johnk
Johnk's picture

If I submit a guest post titled "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!" can I get on ZH too?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:35 | 2317377 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Well...how will $65 Trillion$ of unfunded debt and liabilities be paid for?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:53 | 2317421 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

It can always be paid in printing press dollars but it can never be paid in value.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:55 | 2317427 Hansel
Hansel's picture

Are you contending that we're NOT all gonna die?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:57 | 2317430 Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

What is "unfunded?"

It's easy to fuck over children and the vulnerable  -- again and again.  They are not even consulted in the racketeering syndicate of fraud and fuckups.

Record bonuses for conjuring money from monetized oppression.

END THE FED!

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:28 | 2317503 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

If you can make up the numbers, they can make up revenue.

Or are you just projecting?

 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:36 | 2317379 blu
blu's picture

Get back to us when you can work in a connection to gold price manipulation.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:38 | 2317385 besnook
besnook's picture

denial of said conclusion relegates one to the delusional masses still believing in ponce de leon's fantasy quest.

 

submit something that convincingly examines the case for a return to the glory days and you will get posted, i am sure. you see, the problem with that case is it is become impossible to make the numbers lie so you will have to lie about the numbers...like .gov does.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:39 | 2317389 trembo slice
trembo slice's picture

Well, we are all gonna die.  It is an inevitiblity of the human condition.  Natural law, something the detractors of sound economic theory seem so eager to deny.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:48 | 2317410 bluebare
Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:01 | 2317444 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

On a long enough time line the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 18:44 | 2317848 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

No, because this timeline thing is in the header and
you won`t get anything but bored looks on a doomsters site.

And by the way : guest posts are for entertainment and
furious commenting upon, just to get back on the real thing.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 20:04 | 2318015 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Johnk

So.... your not going to die.... ???   how quaint.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 22:50 | 2318345 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

Johnk.

Thats pronouced "Junk" ...right?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:29 | 2317360 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Always with the negative wavelengths!

More liquidity will solve any problem…

                   Financial markets, drunkenness, sinking ships, whatever.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:00 | 2317368 Dermasolarapate...
Dermasolarapaterraphatrima's picture

Like a small cell cancer knawing away at the bones....like a slowly spreading pestilence.....a chronic decay of the ripened fruit.....mold-forming fungi budding ceaselessly crowding out healthy tissue with fungus......gangrene eating, blackening the burning flesh of the diabetic foot....

Besides this, I think we'll be fine.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:45 | 2317561 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

The word you may be looking for DemaSolar is entropy. Piles of molecules will reform later and only 1/3 of the people go early. I am an optimist but don't believe happy times will be here again until 2021. Unfortunately, history is rhyming.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:35 | 2317376 NEOSERF
NEOSERF's picture

Annoying to be so cynical and watch this ridiculous clown circus of a market play to the sheeple so effectively...I may be broke when the final downturn comes but will have the satisfaction of knowing I was 100% right on the investment and 100% wrong on the timing

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:39 | 2317391 Crab Cake
Crab Cake's picture

There is no painless way out? I think/know there is, but the problem is SOME will endure pain. Its called a jubilee, and it sucks if you still have money and power to lose. Hence the reason its anathema to tptb. Theyve been trying to have a jubilee for the banksters and corpos for several years bow, but socially and politically this can only go on for so long. A jubilee is coming, it cant be avoided. You can call it a reset or default or whatever, but it is coming without doubt. Debts that cant be paid, wont be. The real question is what comes after. Are we going to be Iceland or China?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:49 | 2317415 jomama
jomama's picture

so i should get into a mortgage i can't afford right now, so i can get a free house?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:43 | 2317547 JohnKozac
JohnKozac's picture

jomamma, yes, buy now ....before the house prices drop another 40%.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:49 | 2317417 Marco
Marco's picture

A short bout of hyperinflation is for all extents and purposes a jubilee ...

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:17 | 2317477 perelmanfan
perelmanfan's picture

No, a jubilee does not destroy the life savings of millions...

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:28 | 2317497 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

Wanna bet? Your debts are someone else's savings or pension fund assets.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:30 | 2317511 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Don't confuse the bank with the depositor, Corzine.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 20:11 | 2318027 Kayman
Kayman's picture

"Your debts are someone else's savings or pension fund assets."

Not if you're Bernanke. Your get to conjure up both sides of the balance sheet, so your pals have constant "walking around" money.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 17:42 | 2317673 Agent P
Agent P's picture

"The real question is what comes after. Are we going to be Iceland or China?"

Probably a mixture of both...we'll call it Icelina...no, Chinland!  In fact, that's twice as good a name as Icelina, so let's call it Double Chinland...from now on America will be known as Double Chinland.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:44 | 2317402 JawsMusic
JawsMusic's picture

He's wrong, it has happened before  see Rome, and the Dark ages....

 

 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 19:02 | 2317893 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Dark ages , as in no major conquests and changes to report
for historians because life just went on smoothly in sustainable structures.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:46 | 2317406 besnook
besnook's picture

iceland got out of the noose before the platform door dropped fairly painlessly by lynching the people who should be lynched...the bankers.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:00 | 2317441 Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

The banks are not incorporated in political office in Iceland.

Politics is the best fuck that fraud money can buy.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:44 | 2317555 NumberNone
NumberNone's picture

Iceland's issues were a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.  And the issues were actually caused by the banks so the Iceland government could legitimately be outraged.  Unfortunately the banks have long memories and I'm sure there is a Fuck You moment in store for Iceland at some point in the future. 

In the US the problem is a collusion of the US government and the banks.  The banks let the US government keep writing checks and the US government lets the banks stuff their pockets right from the dollar printing presses.  When it turns ugly the US government will show the American people who they really work for.   

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 00:06 | 2318519 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

That Iceland debt has not disappeared.  It's still around and being sold into the hands of folks who will demand payment.  The worst for Iceland is far from over....

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:48 | 2317409 skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

A good step in preparing for the future is to own, free and clear if possible, a good house, and perhaps productive land. 

 

Inflation means the world out of kelter

Our new diets are just hamburger helper

owning silver is fine

and gold is devine

but you gotta, just gotta have shelter.

(apologies to the Limerick King)

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 17:13 | 2317630 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Just hope that the Keystone XL pipeline doesn't go through your productive land.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:57 | 2317432 dirtbagger
dirtbagger's picture

You get out of debt by figuring out how you go into debt in the first place.  About 1/3 of the deficit is a result of the Bush Tax Cuts; another 1/3 was caused by an increase in unfunded spending and mandates (part D medicare, endless wars, creating bloated and worthless bureacracies such as the dept of Homeland Defense, bailouts to banks, etc.); the final 1/3 is caused by reduced tax revenues from less people working, interest income, and capital gains during this ongoing recesion.

With even a shred of political will, two thirds of the deficit could be quickly reduced by returning to 2000 tax rates and reducing spending levels.  Lowering the unemployment rate is going to take time.   Governmental or personal debt is not necessarily bad, only a question of whether the borrowed funds were invested wisely or just pissed away.

Unfortunately, the individuals who have benefited the most from the policies of the last decade also hold the reins of power.  Not too optimistic about this.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 15:58 | 2317433 mt paul
mt paul's picture

mortgage

on a house of cards 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:32 | 2317514 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

I'ma spend that mortgage money making sure my fire insurance premium is all paid up.

 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 19:11 | 2317907 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Fire insurance as in CDS ? No payout if some of the foundation was found left after the fire?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:16 | 2317475 bobola
bobola's picture

This reminds me of the Y2K scare all over again.

Difference is that one had a specific date and action was taken to fix stuff before the baloon dropped.

This worldwide debt problem is being drawn out, being made bigger and bigger, which will make the problem worse when the baloon drops.

Only 2 people in my circle of family, friends and co-workers understand this. 

The rest are oblivious and don't want to talk about it, or understand it and don't want to acknowledge it.

Am amazed by the paycheck-to-paycheck people I know who just keep on buying stuff they want but don't need.

 

 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:17 | 2317478 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Scumbag Jon Corzine has become the latest financial icon. Cheat until you get caught and just play dumb even though your responsible.  Corzine is laugh along with all of those at Goldman Sachs people  how they can just walk away from fraud. 

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:28 | 2317504 ultraticum
ultraticum's picture

Maybe a good one for little kids to begin to understand how irresponsible (criminal) Uncle Sam really is.  Where's the part about the private banking cartel (Fed, JPM, GS, BoA, etc.) being the first to benefit from newly created money, and earning interest on money created out of thin air to pay for Uncle Sam's endless warfare and welfare?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:29 | 2317509 Silveramada
Silveramada's picture

i can only imagine what we'll be posting when the SHTF moment is here.... A HAHH AH  HAHh aH (if ZH won't be censored by then...)   :(

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 16:35 | 2317528 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Dude the narrator must be a globalist. He says no one knows what will happen if heaven forbid the banks go bankrupt. Threaten me with marshall law why don't ya.

Look you first close the borders. No one in or out. You arrest all federal reserve bankers and bankers of the 5 big banks. You start printing US treasury dollars from the US instead of the FED. All the food going overseas well that stays here. All the energy and raw materials going overseas, well that stays here too. You round up the globalist politicians and in particular the Clintons, Bushs and the Indonesian. You put them all on a slow boat to china. That's about it. Time to Party. Bring it on.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 20:17 | 2318044 Kayman
Kayman's picture

The more they borrow, the longer they print, the longer they wait; the solution becomes the end of a rope.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 17:08 | 2317620 daxtonbrown
daxtonbrown's picture

That's one of the clearest vids for the layman I've seen. We really are screwed no matter what because our politicians won't bite te bullet and call for austerity. About the only way out for the little guy is to try and 'Go Galt' http://www.futurnamics.com/goinggalt.php

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 21:03 | 2318132 silverdragon
silverdragon's picture

Probably a good time to buy more silver.

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 07:23 | 2318841 Watauga
Watauga's picture

I wonder how many people who, as unborn babies, were saved by Pro-Life influence, end up voting, as adults, for those who are Pro-Abortion?  I wonder if they were ever told by their mothers how close she came to killing them, or having them killed? 

Why ask?  Well, a post above mentioned that "It's a cardholder, not a choice."  Clever.  But it made me wonder.  It would be very interesting to know if those saved from abortion end up supporting abortion and, if they do, why they do.  Sort of a "I've got mine, so screw you" mentality.  Unless, of course, mom never told them they were within minutes or hours of getting sucked or cut out of the womb.

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