Things That Make You Go Hmmm - Such As The Similarities Between The Eruption Of Mount Vesuvius And Government Bond Yields

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Fri, 08/26/2011 - 22:32 | 1606478 I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

alot of earth wind and fire lately

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 22:59 | 1606507 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

indeed, tonight we drink ourselves into a fucking coma!

END the FED already, give the people back their liberties so that we can start a recovery of epic historical proportations with sound money backed by Gold and Silver. When Currency

It might sound crazy, but it just might work, put all these TBTF, hedge fund hyenas and Warren Buffetts out of business. Best of all, not a single thread of lesislation needs passage. These laws/ideals have been on the books already for 235 years+. 

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:02 | 1606525 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

It will never happen. They will never "give " the people back their liberties. We have to take them back ourselves. Unfortunatly there are too many people asleep that believe they are free. Until they wake up we will be stuck with the criminal system we have.

Until that day....

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:08 | 1606552 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Freedom is something that's earned. 

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:37 | 1606638 Manthong
Manthong's picture
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free."
Ronald Reagan

I have been feeling an awful lot like a dinosaur lately.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 06:25 | 1606957 Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Something Americans have forgotten.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 09:29 | 1607112 snowball777
snowball777's picture

What did Raygun pass down to me beyond a destroyed middle class, a gutted CA university system, and 33% of GDP increase to the national debt?

Fuck that blowhard B actor wannabe.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 10:04 | 1607166 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

Except for the social issues used to distract us, I don't see much difference between Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama.

Yes, prior to Reagan, discretionary spending was under control, but since his time it was out of control, even under Clinton.  This is not a partisan issue.  The rope is around our necks and neither party can remove it.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 12:45 | 1607474 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I completely agree. Different shades of self-destructively stupid. I do disagree on the "prior to Reagan" part though...we have a much longer history of ill-advised spending, Ronny just kicked it into overdrive and we've never looked back.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:23 | 1606556 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

ur correct that America won't be correcting itself until the innevitable day TSHTF, which will force upon the entire nation the ultimate decisions of what kind of country we want this to be for the next hundred years.

Finishing my earlier point, if currency outstanding was based upon only the supply/demand of gold & Silver mined annually, it would no doubt put the FED out of exsistence as Ron Paul and other Austrians have emphasized .

Introducing the concept of sound money. Economic structure woudl soon shift from wild speculation to capital formation. The simple concept and necessity for a Gold (sound money) standard is very simpily: the outstanding currency in supply historically could never compete with the amount of metal mined. The supply of outstanding credits always contracts in realtive terms of value against the amount of precious metals mined. This mechonizim completely constrains the likes of Bernanke and other central bankers who could not disguise the reality of M3 (money supply outstanding) against the amount of precious metal trading in direction competetion with the fiat reserves.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:24 | 1606590 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

When the party ends there's always that stale-beer-in-the-carpet smell. And the crumbs all over the couch. And the hangover. And the bombed crasher sleeping in the bathtub. 

We're at that point, after the 'shop till ya drop' and 'mint till ya squint' party of the last 30 years. Nothing sound or healthy about it. Nothing balanced or prudent. Just a bloody mess to clean up. Thank you, supply-siders. 

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:33 | 1606621 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

You're preaching to the choir about sound money. My fears are that, like Argentina, the very people who caused the problem will end up in power again.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 09:23 | 1607106 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Wishful thinking in the extreme; best of luck attempting to convince the entitlement state that what it really needs is to be crucified on a "cross of gold".

You may want to clean up that fairydust on your nose.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 10:19 | 1607187 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

Finishing my earlier point, if currency outstanding was based upon only the supply/demand of gold & Silver mined annually, it would no doubt put the FED out of exsistence as Ron Paul and other Austrians have emphasized .

One of the arguments against a gold standard is that there isn't enough gold out there to back the amount of fiat circulating in the world.  However, I think this argument ignores that all fiat could be pegged to the price of gold, and the price of gold could be set by the international banking community, to expand or contract based on the money needs of the monetary system.  That would be a very convenient system for those that held most of the world's gold and for the people who set the price of gold, to say nothing about their friends who would benefit from knowing where those prices would go next.

There's a chance that's the plan.  Some sort of system where trade is settled in gold, but gold is what floats, not the individual currencies.  Under such a system, the actual physical supply of gold is not an obstacle, because the international banking community can just ramp the prices of gold to justify more currency production.

All we know for sure is, the central banks are moving towards a gold related standard, and it won't be a true gold standard.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 12:02 | 1607376 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Hey write,

"...all fiat could be pegged to the price of gold, and the price of gold could be set by the international banking community, to expand or contract based on the money needs of the monetary system."

Excuse me, but don't bankers "expand or contract" money supply based on their own needs,(rather than the "needs" of the monetary system) or rather "need", namely, the need to subjugate and enslave the rest of the world?

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:38 | 1606642 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

lesislation... typing with a slur is a sure sign of drunkeness haha. Turn one up for me while I find my lighter.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 19:42 | 1608408 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

indeed, tonight we drink ourselves into a fucking coma!

I've always been more partial to bakery, myself.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 22:42 | 1606492 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

What a bunch of kiss ashes.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 22:52 | 1606505 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Owning risky soveriegn bonds: A little like.....

Taking a nice afternoon nap in Pompei on Augusr 24th, 79AD....

...or going for a brief workout sea-kayaking in the ocean near Fukushima on March 11th, 2011...

....or having a diet-conscious breakfast at Windows on The World, One World Trade Center, on September 11th, 2001...

...or moonlighting as a guard at The Bastille on July 14th, 1789....

...or being the lucky standby passenger to get on board The Hindenburg on May 6th 1937...

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:29 | 1606610 Big Ben
Big Ben's picture

The difference is that with Pompeii, Fukushima, WTC 9.11, the Bastille, or the Hindenberg it wasn't necessarily obvious that something bad was about to happen. (OK, with Pompeii and the Bastille there were some rumblings that might have given some warning ahead of time. But it wasn't absolutely certain that S was about to HTF).

With sovereign bonds it should be completely obvious to anyone with half a wit that lots of these are not going to be repaid. Yet people keep buying them anyway. It seems that the one inescapble conclusion you get from studying history is that no one ever pays any attention to history.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:34 | 1606626 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

What they all have in common is that sudden, Wile E Coyote moment just when everything seemed to going right

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 09:02 | 1607082 snowball777
snowball777's picture

9/11 and the Hindenberg were also completely avoidable tragedies. There are very few genuine accidents.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:37 | 1606636 AUD
AUD's picture

Or being some poor bastard stuck in Tripoli right now with US bombs falling on your head.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:13 | 1606568 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Vesuvius is a fascinating event.

Pliny the Elder and Pliny the Younger had their moments and are now immortal because of it.

Brief story.  Pliny the Elder was a Roman admiral of the navy and was vacationing at an island offshore where his sister and her son kept house for him.  The mountain kicked off and he, like any fine naval officer, commanded the small squadron he had with him to raise sail and head for shore to rescue Roman citizens.  He got there after the eruption had been ongoing for several days and went ashore to direct evacuation.  While ashore, the volcano's column (the vertical column of material being thrown skyward) ran out of gas and collapsed.  

Pliny the Elder got caught in the collapse and died.  A brave death, doing noble deeds.

His nephew, back on the island, was studiously recording on paper every observation of the volcano he could.  The material, the pumice, was less dense than water so it covered the bay between his island and the volcano.  When the column collapsed, the superheated material started walking out across the bay on top of the floating pumice, coming for him and his mom.

He grabbed her AND HIS WRITINGS and they sprinted for the other side of the island.  They survived.  His observations have stood the test of history as description of what such an eruption looks like and they are now called Plinian Eruptions after him.


Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:48 | 1606668 caerus
caerus's picture

history bitchez

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 10:24 | 1607191 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

I heard part of that story before, but that was great, esp the part about the superheated gasses spreading out across the waters, overtaking and killing the people on ship who thought they had made it to safety.  It is very vivid.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:10 | 1608446 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Pyroclastic flows exterminate all in their path. They are superheated flows of rock and poison gas (up to 1830 degrees F/ 1000 degrees C) moving at speeds up to 450MPH (700 km/h). Those ships at sea most likely were incinerated like dried tinder.


Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:31 | 1606616 oobrien
oobrien's picture

I know I'm crazy.  But i still see deflation ruling the day.

Look at Japan.  What's the yield on their bonds?

This is going to be a long hard slog.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 10:35 | 1607207 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

Japan was a flat tire on an 18 wheeler:

Japan was one country in a global economic BOOM

Japan was before the world economy was completely global

Japan had trillions in domestic savings

Today, all the tires are flat and the cab of the truck is on fire.  The central banks of the world are broke, as well as the big banks, housing, jobs, and soverign governments.  TPTB do not intend to step down from power.  Therefore, they are willing to completely destroy the old system to buy time to set up a new system.  Now, tell me how that resembles Japan?

Your analysis might hold water for one isolated country with lots of savings and staying power, but not in this situation.  Your argument resembles someone telling a group of hikers gunned down in an area with no medical help in sight that will all make it because you once saw a veggie on life support.  Help is not coming, they are not going to make it. 

Either the system is coming down or they successfully hit the reset.

Fri, 08/26/2011 - 23:34 | 1606628 AUD
AUD's picture

This 'safety' arguement is bogus & leads to erroneous conclusions.

The 'big' players are not into safety but profit & falling yields are enormous profits, since bond yields are inverse to price. I find it incredible that supposed financial 'experts' like Grant Williams are unaware of this.

You are not getting "basically nothing" at all, rather exceptional profits on what are marketable securities.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 00:23 | 1606742 Big Ben
Big Ben's picture

I'm sure the 'big' players made enormous profits on Greek bonds. Until they didn't. Just like Countrywide and other banks made huge profits on subprime home loans. Until they didn't.

The 'big' players in many cases are gambling with other people's money. When they win, they take a big slice of the winnings. And they never lose because it isn't their money that they are gambling with.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 01:53 | 1606821 AUD
AUD's picture

Yeah, so what? That doesn't change my point.

The 'big' players will continue to to make enormous profits on UST's & other 'benchmark' bonds until they don't.

My point was that this 'safety' meme is a crock of shit & it leads to erroneous conclusions.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 02:27 | 1606839 Big Ben
Big Ben's picture

The safety argument leads to the conclusion that investing in government debt is eventually going to lead to enormous losses for someone. If that doesn't concern you, then by all means, go ahead and invest in UST's. I think that interest rates will continue to go down until one fine day something will rattle the markets and they will start to jump. And all those paper profits that you made when interest rates were falling will vanish in a puff of smoke.

It is just like what happened with housing prices or dot com stocks. They just kept going up and up because money managers kept piling into them because they were going up. And then one day they started to crash. I don't think anyone really knows why they crashed when they did. Why not a year earlier or a year later? I really wish I knew. But they certainly went down a lot faster than they went up.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 09:20 | 1607085 snowball777
snowball777's picture

There are only "enormous profits" if you bought the bonds at high yields and are selling them now, which is not the case. And "marketable" is transitory too...a bubble is a bubble...until it's a pile of soap on the ground.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 03:06 | 1606865 AUD
AUD's picture

The safety argument leads to the conclusion that investing in government debt is eventually going to lead to enormous losses for someone

You have it backwards mate. The safety argument leads to the conclusion that government bonds are safe. This is erroneous.

But getting back to the original article, people - at least the 'big' players - are not buying government bonds for 'safety', they are buying them for profit as government bond prices are rising. Thus the low yield means nothing. Halving the yield more or less doubles the bond price.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 11:50 | 1607343 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

AUD, so if I understand what you are saying,

 The "safety" is ultimately only that government (fed government) can nominally cover the bond by printing more money. Of course, given inflation, all the 'safety-minded' investors who are not bond-flippers are paying the government just to hold their money.

The 'big' investors (no doubt with collusion and insider info) buy lo and sell hi, flipping bonds for profit. Presumably, should they ever be unable to flip the bond at a profit, the government will step in as a back-stop buyer.

Thus the government bond market can be described as a combination con/ponzi/ bailout racket.


Sat, 08/27/2011 - 04:24 | 1606912 bikes boats birds
bikes boats birds's picture

Fortune brings in some boats that are not steered. it is very true in the boating industry, u can see boats for sale

Keep your bike in good repair: motorcycle boots are not comfortable for walking. interesting bikes bikes for sale

It is not only fine feathers that make fine birds nice post, birds and parrots relate to this birds for sale

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 08:59 | 1607079 snowball777
snowball777's picture


"The combined attacks come just two weeks before the German constitutional court rules on the legality of the various bailout policies. The verdict is expected on September 7."

The best explanation for Ben's punt to Sept 20th to date.



Sat, 08/27/2011 - 09:43 | 1607136 Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

Does that PDF link work for anyone?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 10:01 | 1607162 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

But, but...Robert Prechter says EVERYBODY will flock to treasuries in a deflation and gold will crash.

He's got to be right, he charges a lot for his advice.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 12:06 | 1607380 Akrunner907
Akrunner907's picture

Hmmmm, I smell a new derivative product...............A bond hedge based on the eruption cycle of volcanos. 

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 12:33 | 1607447 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Demise of the Dollar by Addison Wiggins is a great primer in simple language how (and why) these sovereigns may default or inflate their debts away:

Excellent article here from ZH...thanks!

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 14:41 | 1607711 SuSpencer
SuSpencer's picture

History Channel Europe just ran a program on Mt. V and put the number of people who would be immediately deaded at about 3 million.  They have an evac plan, but it's for a burp, not a boom, because there is no way to get people out of the way if it really goes again.;jsessionid=DE9020F23875DEB6C739A355A5064DC2


On the upside, it would take some off the unemployement rolls, and just think of the reconstruction boost to the Italian economy!

This is Keynesian taken to the next level, bitchez!



Sat, 08/27/2011 - 16:25 | 1607982 Tater Salad
Tater Salad's picture

So funny to read every post that thinks inflation is locked and loaded.  Get a grip.  We're so inflationary that we had QE1, nothing...QE2, more nothing and now we need QE3 and oil is way, way off its highs with all of this liquidity sloshing around.  Just because dollars are printed doesn't mean those same dollars carry any velocity, infact quite the opposite right now.

As for Treasuries and how they're the boogy man, rubbish people.  They're the best looking girl at the ugly dance.  And, the uber wealthy, institutions, pensions, etc. buy them for convexity...if you think they're buying for coupon value your an idiot.

Deflation bitchez!  End of story!


Sun, 08/28/2011 - 11:08 | 1609280 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

"Germany will either have massive banking losses (see below) or assume some debt. Why give up the dream of a united Europe over a few trillion and your credit rating? Yet (Ambrose Evans-Pritchard writing in the Telegraph):"

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