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Three Charts That Confirm Greece's Death Even After Restructuring

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Perhaps after today's budget miss in the Hellenic Republic it is time that the focus shift from the reality of a pending #fail for the voluntary PSI (for all the reasons we have at length discussed no matter how many headlines the markets tries to rally on) to a post-restructuring real economy reality in Greece. Whether self-imposed by devaluation or Teutonia-imposed by Troika, austerity is in the cards but there is a much more deep-seated problem at the heart of Greece - a total and utter lack of innovation and entrepreneurship. As Goldman's Hugo Scott-Gall focuses on in his fortnightly report this week "the competitive advantage of innovation is one that developed markets need to keep" and in the case of European nations that desperately need to find a way to grow somehow, it is critical. Unfortunately, Greece, center of the universe for a post-restructuring phoenix-like recovery expectation, scores 0 for 3 on the innovation front. Lowest overall patent grant rate, lowest corporate birth rate, and highest cost of starting a new business hardly endear them to direct investment or an entrepreneurial dynamism that could 'slow' capital flight. Perhaps it is this reality, one of a Greek people perpetually circling the drain of dis-innovation and un-growth, that Merkel is starting to feel comfortable 'letting go of'. Maybe some navel-gazing after seeing these three doom-ridden charts will force a political class to open the economy a little more, cut the red tape (after a drastic restructuring of course) and shift focus from Ouzo, Olive Oil, and The Olympics. We also suggest the rest of the PIIGS not be too quick to comment 'we are not Greece' when they see where they rank for innovation.

 

 

As if these were not bad enough, via Wikipedia, we also note the following three fun facts about the glorious Mediterranean nation:

Greece has the EU's second worst Corruption Perceptions Index after Bulgaria, ranking 80th in the world, and lowest Index of Economic Freedom and Global Competitiveness Index, ranking 88th and 90th respectively.

Quite impressive...and no wonder 5Y CDS held their high cost of protection even when immediate credit event triggers were doubted...sooner rather than later they will default again unless something drastic changes and our admittedly premature discussion of more violence is becoming more and more likely every day as social unrest seems the only catalyst for change in a surreal world of central bankers, banks, and politicians.

 


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Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:21 | Link to Comment JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

"Greece has the EU's second worst Corruption Perceptions Index after Bulgaria"

It just keeps coming.  Again...Did I mention it's a game to cheat the government in Greece?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:27 | Link to Comment AUD
AUD's picture

That's fair enough. Everybody should cheat the government, after all the government has been cheating everybody else for close to a century at least.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 02:16 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Hey Greece/Ireland.... I have innovation enough for both of you. 

Shame, that so many have to suffer when the answers are ALL HERE.

Fascinating...

ori

/watershed-day-may-this-pour-through-a-million-pairs-of-eyes/

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:34 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Typical of narrow minds that abound. Down arrows.... even more fascinating.

Yet not one genius has even bothered to ask something like "Hey, can you prove any of this?". 

But got to dig deeper, find some financial arbitrage opportunity, stare at some more charts, go round eyed... funny funny people. 

Well, y'all remember ori, okay?

And missed opportunities. ;-)

Be clear soon enough.

ori

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:13 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

nice, more down arrows. Go for it folks.

Sheep. 

First they ignore you, then they abuse you, then they fight with you, then you win! 

ori

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:28 | Link to Comment CharlieSDT
CharlieSDT's picture

Dude, I like your commentary on ZH, but astrology is retarded.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:42 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Charlie, we can leave astrology aside for a minute. Or for-ever.

I'm talking innovation. Electric Cars with Qudruple range, aircraft that fly longer/safer/quieter, radical new bicycle, wind-power, properly applied, a new shoe, a new understanding of the human body, or bio-mechanics. On and on.

That is what I've been saying here and generally. 

Enough for a nation to pull it'self out from a greece like situation, show the middle finger to the oligarchs and make life better all around. 

But everyone prefers that such radical change comes to them via someone else. 

It's too painful to shatter old delusions. Or so it seems anyways.

ori

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:44 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

a new shoe?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:23 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Indeed. 

A New Shoe.

We went that that far wrong on the path of technology. 

ori

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:38 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

dood your a genios.

only "TPTB" stifling all of your miracle inventions is causing you to be a babbling nobody on ZH

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 10:06 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

When you can come up with a nice flying carpet I'll pay more attention...

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 11:03 | Link to Comment Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Your reward is that you can think ORI,  keep it up.  Even on this site, there seems to be a lack of the ability for creative and unencumbered thought.  As you can see, they feel threatened by letting their minds wander, but get really hostile when you challenge their beliefs.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 09:29 | Link to Comment chindit13
chindit13's picture

I’m looking for some new underwear.  Actually, it’s old underwear that for reasons unknown has gone out of style.  I used to buy these really comfortable powder blue Pima cotton boxers that…how can I say…let a man be a man.  Really comfortable.  A few vendors used to sell them, like Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom and Saks.  Everybody but Saks stopped, and even Saks changed the design so the old fit is gone.  Plus, I’ve always kept in shape, so the waist is still 32”.  Geez, try to find that size in the US in anything, especially if one is tall to boot.  Can't be done.  Maybe if I ate another hundred cheeseburgers.  Is it too much to ask to have a comfortable pair of boxers?  We can send a man to the moon (or Arizona desert for the conspiracy crowd), but can’t we make a comfortable pair of boxers?  I don’t mind paying up.  If I remember correctly, they cost $32 a pair, but well worth it.  Truth be told, I’ve actually started growing my own Sea Island cotton in a secret and undisclosed location (no kidding), I’ve located some folks who know how to turn the cotton balls into thread, and others who have a loom and can weave the fabric.  Very low tech but high quality. There is no length to which I will not go for comfortable boxers.  Everything in life stems from a free and comfortable fit right where it counts.  Perhaps I can put a Zerohedge logo on them and sell them at the ZH store?  No way I'm going Eurotrash or French Canadian and wearing bikini briefs in a black mesh!  Boxers=freedom.

Just having fun, ORI.  Hope you can smile.  Namaste.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:46 | Link to Comment GovtMediaLiars
GovtMediaLiars's picture

I'll probably regret this but...I'll bite.

I've probably heard a million differen plans to achieve a "post-scarcity" utopia. It is usually being espoused by some mindless, collectivist drone type. But not always. 
I've yet to be even mildly swayed by any of these arguments that I have so far come across but I remain a (reasonably) open mind in all things.
(though tbh most of the dozens I have either read up on independently, or been "preached" to about  by others don't amount to much more than lots of bare assertions with some imaginative dreaming thrown in. Rarely do they even reach the level of making an actual "argument" in my experience).

What have you got?

Cheers!
GML 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:28 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Well GML, i've laid it all out on the linked post above.

Contact details and everything. 

What I've got. Hmmmmm......... it really depends. Whatever area you speak of, if it involves technology is some real way, I've got something direct or tangential.

And each "thing" goes in three phases, retro-fit, re-fit and re-new.  

Do get in touch if called. Not sure who you are are what you do, but i'm open to discussions all around.

ori

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:19 | Link to Comment Treason Season
Treason Season's picture

He's not a dude. He's a guru swami wannbe looking for kool-aid drinkers tragedy waiting to happen.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:24 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Hilarious. Truly hilarious. 

ori

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:58 | Link to Comment Green Leader
Green Leader's picture

Tragicomic, I'd say.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:07 | Link to Comment BandGap
BandGap's picture

ORI - chill.  Here, an up arrow, I appreciate your take in the mix of things.

BTW - that blog doesn't exactly flow.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:24 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

;-) Bandgap, this is seven years on, so I'm a little worn. Not making it hard, but not easy either. Fancy presentations, slick graphs and projections? Lead to the same old same old, no? Been there, done that. 

Perhaps getting to a mother-lode should be a little hard? 

ori

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:40 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

yeah, your site is a mother-lode all right...a lode of bullshit

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 09:03 | Link to Comment adr
adr's picture

What, you don't believe in pyramid power or renderings without any real engineering or applicable design?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 12:06 | Link to Comment IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

"remember ori.."

Does that mean you're going away?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 10:14 | Link to Comment Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Fuck off dot head!

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:47 | Link to Comment jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

speaking of innovation, the patent chart gave me pause: percent granted?  out of what, applications?  what about the rate of application?  shouldn't the focus be on something like patents granted per 100,000 population or something like that?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 10:30 | Link to Comment Town Crier
Town Crier's picture

A psychopath moves sequentially in three modes: rescuer, victim, abuser.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:36 | Link to Comment HedgeAccordingly
HedgeAccordingly's picture

with death.. comes new life.. or something like that .. 

euro bidding again tonight & dollar - http://hedge.ly/wbB2wS

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:23 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

This is the core problem with most of the Eurozone Members, to varying degrees, the UK, and sadly and increasingly, the United States, as well (we're snoozing).

The United States had been an innovator and incubator of new business models, products, a leader in R&D and a vibrant petri dish of entrepreneurship up until as late as the mid 90s (although in diminishing fashion), but at an overlapping period, beginning in the 1970s, financial services and banking (as well as the entire FIRE complex) became Deep Capture machine, and finance/banking interests expanded their influence in Congress greatly, culiminating with the diastrous The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act (Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999), and the expansion of the financial/banking sector as producers of an ever increasing share of U.S. GDP, much in the fashion as what took place in England.

But most Eurozone Members are far worse, with massive, bloated government even by our standards (though we're doing well in catching up), a cradle-to-grave welfare mentality, and entitlement programs that there productivity and demographic patterns can't possibly sustain.

This is why Germany & the minority block of solvent Eurozone Members who have their financial house in order (and Germany had to go through the painful process of reunification with the former East Germany just 24 years ago, which cost them a fortune) are shooting themselves in the foot, and head eventually, to try and prop up the current Eurozone in anything remotely close to the shape it now takes.

The proposals on the table are not going to resolve the defects that caused the crisis. Germany can post all the personnel in Greece (and Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Italy and France, too) that it wants to, and it won't change anything. There's not going to be any material repayment of loan packages (especially with the economic contraction underway and getting worse) or reformation of the system because it's more about culture than anything else.

The common currency zone of Europe allowed the perpetually indebted to borrow beyond their means, with the deficits and debts papered over by phony accounting, periodic bubbles in real estate and other assets (Spain is a prime example of this), for a time being, while the idealogues proclaimed "see, it's working out well!," until everything was exposed, in a factual matter and unequivocally, for the broken system it is.

Now, it's either print at warp speed and suffer massive debasement of living standards anyways, with the inevitability of having to return and do this againa and again, because the underlying defect causing the problems can't be 'fixed,' or cut the losses and recognize reality and wind it up as a failed experiment.


Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:28 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

See, I toldja so.
Just goes to show what the World Bank knows.  The charts are about Europe and they have the US in them.  Betcha they were made for a CNBS presentation.
Like this morning on CBS radio's MarketWatch.  They reported a rally on Wall Street with the Dow up 36, the NasDick (I don't remember) and the S&P up 4 because of the good news out of Europe concerning Greece.

Awesome.

Gonna go do my TurboTax return tonite on the TimmyGetitupyer Edition....

Oh and PS...  Which one of the Fed governors was it that holds $1.0+MM in GLD?  Does that news make him a suspected turderust, too?  And what about the Fed/Treasury, because they own a lot of the traditional barbaric relic.

Hugs,
Lost in Pabulumistan

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 02:07 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

'The charts are about Europe and they have the US in them.' Yes but they also have New Zealand, Brazil and Australia and others. It's 'take your pick' time depending on what point you wish to make...

'Which one of the Fed governors was it that holds $1.0+MM in GLD?' Never thought I'd feel good to see investors lose money but you know what, when GLD finally folds it will be to a wry smile on my face...

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:12 | Link to Comment Babushka
Babushka's picture

Corruption preception index,  Index of Economic Freedom and Global Competitiveness Index  made by and using statistics from organizations like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the Economist Intelligence Unit, African Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank, the Bertelsmann Foundation.

Hmm.. I am sure those guys know everything about corruption in end of days that how they achieved own economic compettitiveness and freedom while establishing themself in Asia, Afrika, South America and Greece.

Good sourcing Tyler!!! Bravo!!! Sarc/off

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:06 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

I think that you're still running from the TRUTH...

As long as the premise is based on perpetual growth on a finite planet it doesn't matter WHAT is done, it will STILL end up in collapse.

To state one of only TWO major events in the 1970s is a clear indication of this blind eye.  The other event that people miss is that of peak US oil production, of it then going going over the top of the parabola, from being a net exporter to a net importer.

"Innovation" and such is only as good as the physical resources available to apply toward such ideas and processes.

The fact that ALL wars are about resources should be a clear indication that the fundamentals are ALWAYS based on the PHYSICAL.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:46 | Link to Comment candyman
candyman's picture

thanks,  i needed that

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:21 | Link to Comment battle axe
battle axe's picture

For the love of all things holy, will they please let Greece go so that they concentrate on the big problems, Spain/Italy.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:24 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

"the competitive advantage of innovation is one that developed markets need to keep"

Have the Greeks considered colonizing the moon like the winner of the South Carolina primary has passionately suggested?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 03:47 | Link to Comment Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

Can olive oil be used for rocket fuel?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:43 | Link to Comment economics1996
economics1996's picture

No but its a great lubricant.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:32 | Link to Comment AC_Doctor
AC_Doctor's picture

Hail Frick'n Caesar!  Do you think the BLS birth/death model adjustment is actually stolen from Greece or a solar system far, far, away or should is most of Greece going to become "The Hood".  Bob D. should comment on this...

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:40 | Link to Comment Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

"Render unto Caesar" quote misused, abused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKkPWCgI6l4 (2:41)

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:27 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

Greece is a zombie, should have never been allowed into the EU. 

Yeah the violence will get intense now. 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:29 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The EU should have never allowed itself.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:34 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

checkmate.

I agree.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:54 | Link to Comment Kiwi Pete
Kiwi Pete's picture

It was never a good idea economically. The currency Union was just done for political reasons. In fact the only reason a currency union works in the US is because you all speak the same language. Thus when Detroit goes tits up you can all move elsewhere for jobs. Arguably it would be better if Mitchigan had it's own currency and could devalue against California. It's a bit more difficult to jump ship when the only language you speak is Greek.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 10:30 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

The Us used to have regional interest rates set by local banks. It now has a central interest rate but has Federal Transfer Payments and Pentagon Contracts to re-balance regional differences. So you might say a Currency Union is only possible with a Uniform Welfare State which is what the ECB is creating de facto, copying the US innovation of Welfare for Wall Street.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:21 | Link to Comment cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

The currency Union was just done for political reasons.

Actually it was done for banker reasons.  It allowed bankers to steal wealth form productive people, lend it to unproductive people, and make a profit (fees and interest) from the loan.

It's the same thing happening here in America.  The Fed steals wealth from productive people, lends it to unproductive people (the government ...and banks now), and makes a profit (fees and interest) from the loan.

You have to have a central bank and an unbacked fiat currency to do that.  A currency the central bank can print at will (and dilute its value). 

20 years after America went off the gold standard completely, bankers in Europe saw how successful the Fed was at stealing wealth from the American people, lending it to the government, and making a huge profit in the process.

They wanted the same ability so they hatched the idea of a European monetary union, a common (unbacked fiat) currency, and a central bank.

No, governments didn't come up with it.  Bankers did.  Just like bankers here in America came up with the idea of an unbacked fiat currency controlled by a central bank.

Governments in Europe went along with it because they benefit from it.  They get to borrow massive amounts of wealth from the people without their consent.  And they never have to pay it back.

Same thing here in America. The government went along with it because they get to borrow massive amounts of wealth from the people without their consent.  And they never have to pay it back.

There's just one little problem.  Eventually the government borrows sol much wealth from the people they're reduced to poverty.  The economy collapses, and the nation slides into anarchy.

That's where Europe is now. 

That's where America is now.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:48 | Link to Comment RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

US oligarchs were also firmly behind the idea of the EU as a way to move their profits out of a US currency that had to be devalued in order to compete with rising third world economies.  It was all so convenient:  Those European vacations, wining and dining were great while it lasted; now they want their money back stateside and still untaxed to boot (GE, etc.)

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 11:04 | Link to Comment Rynak
Rynak's picture

Actually, besides of central wealth control, a deciding aspect about the currency union... and the one that escalated the bipolar structure.... was that a currency union REMOVES some tools from individual govs.. not just control of the de/inflation of the own currency, but also things like tarrifs.... economically, the "big thing" about the currency union, was to remove borders... to remove the ability of individual nations, to regulate the attractivity of imports and exports from specific other nations.... via the currency union, the members stopped being able to decide with whom to trade.

This is relevant for the pusher/junkie setup.... if a nation begins a price war, and starts to produce below sustainable costs... other nations in the union cannot shield themselves from that, but are forced to either participate in the race to the bottom, see their large corps leave the country, or both.... same the other way around:  if a country lives on credit and printed money, other countries are not able to isolate themselves from that... instead "since they're all in the same boat", they force-share the burden.

While the currency union may have made trade easier, it also removed most national tools to isolate destructive tactics and parasites.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:20 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Blablabla - the european currency union was a RESPONSE to the last Currency Wars - now we are at the possible beginning of the next currency wars and this is the reason why ICELAND wants IN the eurozone

15. August 1971 - Germany fed up importing inflation from the US, France asking for it's gold back, and Nixon showing the finger to all allies and partners by saying: it's our reserve currency and your problem

The whole ECB/EUR stuff is just a bloody Dollar-Hegemony-Mutual-Protection Scheme. A if-you-do-it-then-we-are-not-going-to-lose-advantages-just-like-that counter-racket.

Shhheeeessh, for a blog full of geezers you seem all very forgetful - where were you 1971? Under drugs?

GO ON YOUTUBE and watch Nixon's 4 minutes speech as he trashed the Bretton Woods Agreement. LEARN from it.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 13:04 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

Nixon's knee jerk to de Gaulle's 'exorbitant privilege', started globalisation thread, but in the wake of peak oil uSA, great society spend and Vietnam war; all of which made him say "our money your problem' and start the fiat pump. Pure hegemony play, he even told Japan to F.Off with its exports and put tariffs on their imports, obliging them to develop outsourced new tiger regional economy. They thrived on it like Germany on value added.

That made it even worse for US trade balance, especially after oil hike. Kissinger got his job cut out in ME and we were right into OIL LOBBY/Israel/ PAX Americana- petrodollar/Bilderburger Metternich NWO exclusive club/ China ping pong construct. 

It paid off to stop cold war; it fed fiat pump especially when RR/LT played at being Lady Chatterly and world gardener in FIRE deregulation WS binge. 

ENter EURO zone to counter this trend...time line Kohl/Mitterrand deal 1983/84.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:23 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'd say Sandmanns', cranky's and my response are not mutually exclusive, by the way.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:25 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Microsoft and other multinationals also hate the EU, by the way.
Are you in good company?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:24 | Link to Comment wandstrasse
wandstrasse's picture

sound money and a few decades of Austrian economics would even let Greece soar...

while debt fiat and banker command will even destroy Germany.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:29 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

The left is far too strong in Greece for "Austrian" economics to take hold.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:04 | Link to Comment wandstrasse
wandstrasse's picture

True. it sounds paradox but 'the left' and ponzi bankers are allies.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:31 | Link to Comment Wipeout2097
Wipeout2097's picture

"We also suggest the rest of the PIIGS not be too quick to comment 'we are not Greece' when they see where they rank for innovation."

 

What's your point?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:38 | Link to Comment azusgm
azusgm's picture

Lack of engines for growth in countries that think they will grow their way out of their debt holes.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:42 | Link to Comment GernB
GernB's picture

It seemed obvious to me. That a key component of their problem is an environment that is unfriendly to bueiness formation, and that it is not limited to just Greece. That the cancer of European socialism values collective suffering over individuals benefitting from their own accomplishments. The natural consequence is an environment which dicourages the activities from which individual create wealth for a nation.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:07 | Link to Comment Wipeout2097
Wipeout2097's picture

No, it's not obvious at all. The other PIIGS are at the middle of the pack. The countries that have higher tax rates and "Socialist values" are usually the Scadinavians.

You surely can't look at Europe with non-European eyes. There are traditions, history, habits that have nothing to do with "Socialism" or don't conform to your polarized politics.

 

 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:29 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

I think he meant that they speak their own languages but still remain confused.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:59 | Link to Comment jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

the data shown above seems a bit mixed but denmark ranks well on all three.  the highlighted "other piigs" seem relevant though the level of debt, previously shown in detail, seems more so.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:01 | Link to Comment GovtMediaLiars
GovtMediaLiars's picture

You are both correct in parts so I'd call it even stevens.

 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:34 | Link to Comment RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

And what was it that was different about these countries when they were were first admitted to the EU?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:38 | Link to Comment GernB
GernB's picture

Welcome to the wonderfule world of European socialism

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:13 | Link to Comment Wipeout2097
Wipeout2097's picture

More bias coming from an US right-winger. What is stopping you from producing and exporting high-quality equipment like Germany does? Germany and Scandinavia have welfare state and plenty of "Socialist" policies

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:21 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Germans are enterprising people. Don't forget not all too long ago they tried to commit genocide and take over the world. 

Ask Greece how they like the socialism coming from Germany.  How are the Spanish enjoying their 25% UE rate? Or Portugals 13.5% 

Euro = fail

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:58 | Link to Comment Kiwi Pete
Kiwi Pete's picture

The US has socialism for banks and big biznez. The EU for citizens. We also have it for citizens.  I know which I prefer. 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:43 | Link to Comment giovanni_f
giovanni_f's picture

spot on.

@bob_che-stronzo_dabolina: Germans are Nazis, that's why they have cheaper and better health care, no burst-housing-bubble hangover, a lower unemployment rate and no stinking hellhole slums in almost every bigger city?

A-ha, oh-k, Maybe that's why the US has been so hellbent to become a Nazi state ever since WWII.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:23 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

If not for the Marshall Plan Germany would likely have been in a hole and never have gotten out of it.  TPTB, who were largely responsible for the rise of Nazi Germany, needed to prop Germany back up so that they could get their money back out of it: Marshall Plan stole from ordinary citizens and routed to, drum roll... TPTB.

Anyone thinking that Germany is in such a great position needs to ask the question: What physical resources does Germany have?

When your top exports are NOT raw/natural resources then you're going to struggle going forward: when everyone else is broke and contracting it's a little difficult to keep expanding sales of BMWs... (yeah, I know, Germany make more than just higher-end autos, but autos ARE one of their top exports [as is financial services- ouch!]).

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:22 | Link to Comment Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Spot on! the avg German family lives in 575 sq ft of living space, owns half a car and pay's $5.50/gal for gas.

Avg American lives in 950 sq ft, owns 1.5 cars and is paying $3.50 for gas.

Want to be Germany? Move into a house half the size, sell a car and mostly ride mass transit,

the savings will more than pay for better healthcare than the avg German is currently receiving.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 10:26 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

and pay's $5.50/gal for gas.

 

Where do you get petrol so cheap in Germany ?    Try  $2.18 per LITRE  or  $8.25 per US gallon 

 

He also pays half his employer health insurance premiums from after-tax income

 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 10:20 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Britain received MORE Marshall Aid than Germany but used it to retire Government Debt. The Marshall Plan came after Britain went bust trying to keep Communism out of Greece and asked Truman to take over - Truman Doctrine.  Truman knew the Republican Congress would not give him funds for Europe so asked George C Marshall to front it. The demand for the Marshall Plan came from Ford Motor Company, General Motors etc which could not get US Dollars in europe to buy machinery to re1-equip their factories in Britain and Germany.  Britain introduced bread rationing AFTER the War to provide food to blockaded Berlin and the 1947 Winter was disastrous in Europe.

So Marshall Aid - which was offered to Central Europe - but refused by Stalin - allowed Europe to recover and US business to develop a huge export trade with Europe.  As for physical resources - most European countries have coal, German had potash, but it has easy access to Russian raw materials....and the Russian market seems to like German products. You also forget Germany is a major industrial power with factories in Brazil, Singapore, Malaysia, India, China, South Africa, Canada, USA, Poland, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Britain, Turkey, Slovakia........so German "exports" are a joke under EU definitions which mean that the last point of value-added is the country of origin.

Siemens used to take its wafers from Regensburg to Malaysia for expoylating and then bacjk to Villach in Austria for finishing. The fact is that German-made is not really Made in Germany - simply given its final wrapper after being made in Turkey or Brazil.....as for BMWs - you must be thinking of the Z series or the 4x4s Made in USA and sold to Suckers in Europe as if they were Made in Germany

 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 14:18 | Link to Comment Rynak
Rynak's picture

 

Anyone thinking that Germany is in such a great position needs to ask the question: What physical resources does Germany have?

If you had the faintest clue about german culture, you'd figure it out. The german population has the ideal mindset to not just be drones, but be well coordinated and smart drones - ideal for a highly industrial economy that requires a halfway competent workforce. Give them even just a halfway functional economy, and they'll turbocharge it. While the marshal plan may have greatly helped to get germany "back on it's knees", it stood up by it's own power and paid back, not by the USA. The USA did not create the german "economic wonder", it just ENABLED it.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:30 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Funny, I had thought that was Stalin's repertoire.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 02:13 | Link to Comment azusgm
azusgm's picture

...and they also have the US military covering their tails but paid for by the friendly and oblivious US taxpayer.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:46 | Link to Comment giovanni_f
giovanni_f's picture

not exactly. The US taxpayer is broke.

Try replace "US tax payer" with "foreign US bond buyers".

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:44 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

covering their tails from whom?  Oh yeah, protecting them from major terrorist attack.

The military was TOTALLY NECESSARY to protect us all these decades.  Oh wait, 9/11 still happened.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:40 | Link to Comment Mercury
Mercury's picture

Whether self-imposed by devaluation or Teutonia-imposed by Troika, austerity is in the cards but there is a much more deep-seated problem at the heart of Greece - a total and utter lack of innovation and entrepreneurship.


They totally should have patented Greek yogurt...

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:43 | Link to Comment Zero Bid
Zero Bid's picture

what they should do is make and sell soap...from their own fat asses

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:58 | Link to Comment Kiwi Pete
Kiwi Pete's picture

And Greek sex.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:49 | Link to Comment HarrisonBergeron
HarrisonBergeron's picture

I don't see how this doesn't end in revolution for Greece and Spain. I mean jesus, youth unemployment is 49% in Spain. I just dare them to try and enforce more austerity on either country when there is literally enough people to form multiple armies.

 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:32 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Finally, someone sees the bigger picture of the future!

What it all translates to, what it all is trying to tell us, is that we've overrun our future capacities.  This is reflected in your comment on youth employment.

It's really not all that better in the US.  The US printing press has, so far, been able to paper over this festering boil.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:51 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

It's really not all that better in the US. The US printing press has, so far, been able to paper over this festering boil.
----------------------------------------------

US of A monopoly on emission of world currency ensures US of A citizens are first to consume when world resources are distributed.

With the world being global and finite, it is enough one or several global actors have gone in unsustainable mode for even a country that has not overrun its future capacity (a conservation country) to share the same fate: all the resources available will be allocated in an effort to sustain what is unsustainable.

All the resources the Greeks are no longer going to consume are going to be redirected toward consumers of bigger weight.

US of A situation is different as the major lead in the unsustainable trend and the monopolistic emitter of world currency.

A black hole, bottomless pit, sisyphean work...

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 11:37 | Link to Comment DOT
DOT's picture

"... all the resources available will be allocated in an effort to sustain what is unsustainable."

And then the Centrally Controlled Economy will collapse and young and fervent citizens will be sent to the countryside to die.  (Great Leap Forward)

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 00:59 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

 

Ron Paul: The Coming Chaos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ZlxvDqYJY&feature=g-all-u&context=G2d4bc13FAAAAAAAAIAA

Uploaded by on Feb 7, 2012

Heed These Words!!

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:03 | Link to Comment carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Cutting a deal with a "culture of corruption" is an exercise in futility. The Greeks won't honor it and the Germans will get what they deserve for trying to prop up this banana republic.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:01 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

The "culture of corruption," PLEASE!, like ALL govts AREN'T about that?

My wife is from the Philippines and she would always lament on its corruption.  I point out to her that the US is FAR more corrupt (more [fiat] money), it's just that the corruption is institutionalized and made to look clean (laundered); the US is polished.

Those believing that Germany is somehow saintly are only kidding themselves.  One could just as easily ascribe "culture of killers" to Germany.

Funny it all, we're lambasting the country where democracy originated and applauding the country where democracy created one of the most fascist of nations.  History is full of irony.

And no, I've got no skin in either country. I have been in Germany, no bad experiences btw; and, no bad experiences with German products or anything like that; have family history that traces back to Germany (so, really, no reason to blast Germany).  No direct experiences with anything having to do with Greece other than my reading of Greek philosophers (and some history).

From http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/11/14/why-germany-needs-the-euro/

Germany relies on the weakest members

It's probably because of a truth that no one likes to talk about: Germans have benefitted greatly from the euro -- it's given them an artificially weak currency. Normally, one would hate to be paid in a weak currency -- among other things, it makes their vacations abroad more expensive. But for Germany, a weak currency has been its ticket to prosperity. If the Germans would leave the euro, they would actually be shooting themselves in the foot.

Consider that Germany, which has a generous social safety net, relatively high wages and just 80 million people, is the world's second-largest exporting country. The euro has played a significant part in this. German exports have more than doubled since they went on the euro in 1999, going from around 469 billion euros to well over a trillion euros in 2010. The rate of growth was also twice as fast as other nations in the zone. While there is no doubt that the Germans make quality stuff, the reason they are able to export so much at competitive price points is because they are operating with a relatively cheap currency.

In no way am I defending anything.  Just pointing out that the "Germany is an innocent victim" story/view is lacking in a basis set in reality.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 13:34 | Link to Comment carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Some are more corrupt than others... to paraphrase the Pig.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:29 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

Well said.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:05 | Link to Comment Georgesblog
Georgesblog's picture

It's been raining forks over Greece for a long time. There isn't anything that hasn't been stuck. Think of Europe as a recycling yard. It's a big U- pick it parts yard.  You can scavenge for a pittance. If you run across a good Holley 650 CFM 4 - Barrel carb, I got dibs on it 

http://thedailyclimb.wordpress.com/

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:11 | Link to Comment AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

I think breaking up the EU, US, and any other monetary order is in order.  The best way we're going to get through this is to recover locally and regain competitive advantages that way.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:05 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Clearly, there is no longer sufficient spoils to be had from joint-pillaging...

Those without sufficient natural resources (to sustain their fundamental paradigms) are going to be utterly fucked.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:12 | Link to Comment alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

What is happening in Greece will happen to any nation that places the well being of banks above the well being of it's people.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:30 | Link to Comment Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

Markets do not approve your message. You were warned!

/sarc 0

Have you noticed how cunningly they introduce new phrases which help us better describe corporate world we are supposed to live in? Corporate birth rate. Disgusting.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:07 | Link to Comment Nobody For President
Nobody For President's picture

Hey! Corporations are people (our very own Supremes said so), and you are hurting their feelings. Their birth rate is important to them. Be a little more sensitive here.

NFP

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:31 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

OK
Let's reprioritize.
Set anal sex first, the well being of the people and the banks tied for second. 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:37 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture
DAVID STOCKMAN: It's True, The BLS Data Is Made Up

Stockman: "If you spend a little time with these numbers you will know that they are being made up."

http://www.businessinsider.com/david-stockman-its-true-the-bls-data-is-made-up-2012-2
Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:36 | Link to Comment Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

These charts are almost meaningless. Economists can cook all kinds of charts to prove their point and impress us. That doesnt make economy a science. Its still on par with religion.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:50 | Link to Comment ConspiracyTheory
ConspiracyTheory's picture

Who cares Greece is dead or not. Risk on, baby!

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:53 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

We got some mean ass divergence on the VIX and SPX.  Scrapping along at 17, any lower say 16 (pre May 6 2010 flash-crash)... 

VIX 2yr (insert SPX overlap.  Nasty) :http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/VIX/charts?chartType=interact...

+

history repeating: May 6th 2010 - Greeks lose on it Austerity bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wtFbp6C2h0&feature=related

= FUBAR trade due

 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 01:55 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

Chinese Electricity Consumption Fell Massively In January, And The Chinese New Year Doesn't Explain It

Ultra-brief note here from Nomura's Zhiwei Zhang :

According to the China Securities Journal, China's electricity consumption in January fell by 7.5%. We estimate this may be the first decline since 2002 (excluding the financial crisis period in 2008-09), indicating industrial production may have slowed sharply in January.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-electricity-consumption-fell-mass...

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 02:06 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

Yeah China is next.   We get a three way of PboC, ECB, FED orgy of money printing madness...I would lock in major war/skirmish end yr or sooner.

Central banks are now running global markets and directly influencing political policy.  Danger ahead.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 02:25 | Link to Comment silverbullion
silverbullion's picture

The Satanic brotherhood must be ecstatic about their accomplishments so far...

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 02:33 | Link to Comment lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Somehow, the frothy mix of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex won 3 states... vote fraud?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 03:23 | Link to Comment Olympia
Olympia's picture

Global Debt Crisis

The greatest private fraud of human history.
Who are the great fraudsters who are becoming the murderers of the human kind? How does the economy "illness" threaten Democracy and the freedom of people?

http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/01/global-debt-crisis.html
---------------------------------
By knowing what happened in indebted Greece, where loan sharks created “bubbles” and the current inhuman debt, one can understand the inhuman plan in total ...understand where this plan started just to bring all states at the same end ...understand how this type of plans are established...

Authored by PANAGIOTIS TRAIANOU

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:20 | Link to Comment Archon7
Archon7's picture

Looking at charts for Greece is like looking at someone's biosigns go flat-line on the monitors.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:14 | Link to Comment whirlybird rules
whirlybird rules's picture

Unfx#***ing believable farce!   Long live the US dollar - lol!   AFTER ALL THE SHIT THAT HAS GONE DOWN AND THE EURO IS OFF 20 CENTS.  Someone explain to me how in this level playing field Bernanke the average Joe would survive... Pathetic.

 

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 04:40 | Link to Comment EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

I have a better statistic. Greece has defaulted 108 times in 200 years on its sovereign debt. Isn't that an even better statistic?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:16 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

US citizens path out of US citizenism: more US citizenism.

Innovation: find new ways to consume resources

Entrepreneurship: implementation of the new ways to consume resources.

Solution to a shortage of resources: be more innovative and more entrepreneurial.

US citizenism: more of what put you here in the first place to get you out of it.

Bankers are first US citizens and second bankers.

Their suggested solutions are the same vein, more debt to solve debt.

US citizen nature is eternal.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:23 | Link to Comment valley chick
valley chick's picture

and the markets rally this morning?  why?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:28 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Patent filings at the European Patent Office in Munich probably have more to do with the number of Patent Lawyers in each jurisdiction and the nature of the judicial system. As for corporate business, there is simply no point unless you want to alienate assets and liabilities from your personal situation. If you do not pay taxes or face threat of litigation what is the point in being a corporate ? In most jurisdictions corporate taxes are lower than personal taxes but reporting is a requirement, and in some jurisdictions private limited companies reveal ownership details and home addresses of directors and owners. There may be good reasons in The Balkans not to do so.

Further Greece is barely European, the  Tourkokratia or Rukle by the Ottoman Turks began in 1458 after the sack of Constantinople and the chaotic rule of the Ottomans lasted until 1821. The complete chaos in terms of legal system and institutional independence in areas occupied by the Ottomans is evident in Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Greece, The Levant, Syria, The Hejaz, and most of the Middle East. The political system is based on patronage and pork barrel - is that so unfamiliar to people in Louisiana ?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:34 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Greece's case is routine in expansion.

Expansion defines an interior and an exterior. The exterior is consumed first.

When the exterior is satured, the only source to sustain the expansion scheme is the interior, a stomach digesting itself when nothing is fed to it.

Greece had so far a status of high level consumer, belonging to the interior, consuming the exterior more than Greece was consumed.

All those charts try to suggest that the resources actually consumed by Greece would be better allocated elsewhere, more efficiently consumed somewhere else for the greater good, the advance of humanity and the rest.

Of course, it is just travesty.

Countries that consume more than Greece need Greece's consumption share to maintain their own share.

Conservation does not exist in US citizenism. Only consumption.

Innovation and entrepreneurship do not mean conservation. They mean consumption.

US citizens will keep tackling an issue of overconsumption by tracking down non consumers and lesser consumers to favour the greater consumers.

That is the way it is in this US driven world.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 05:36 | Link to Comment Olympia
Olympia's picture

I agree with you with the aforementioned...

Loan sharks knew that if they took the dollars printing machines under their control they could suffocate the world ...they could initially suffocate USA and after taking the USA from the Americans, they could move and suffocate the whole world and take the countries from their people.

FED printed cheap money and loansharking multiplied this money in an unnatural way within the American economy boarders and they discarded them abroad so that they did not threaten USA. USA became the first state in the world with artificial “breathing”...

It cannot be possible but just in the USA for only the last year, more than one million houses were seized. It cannot be impossible but the New World has returned to tents and shelters ..has returned to the ages of Columbus. It cannot be possible that we allow to a few loan sharks looting the toils and the assets of people...

http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/01/global-debt-crisis.html

------------------------

Global Debt Crisis

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 06:19 | Link to Comment Rynak
Rynak's picture

 

We also suggest the rest of the PIIGS not be too quick to comment 'we are not Greece' when they see where they rank for innovation.

That's easy, just refuse to accept goldman's definition of "innovation", and the whole argument becomes at least "misphrased".

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:41 | Link to Comment cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

There's no restructuring possibility for Greece.

There's no way Greece can pay the interest on their massive government debt anymore, much less pay back any of the principal. 

It's the end of the road for Greece.  Game over.

Greece will default.  There is no other choice.

They're trying to get the debt reduced.  Make bondholders take 50% haircuts, 80% haircuts, whatever, and not trigger CDS payouts.

It's not gonna work.  If they succeed, then the entire CDS world is a joke and will lose all credibility. 

Bankers aren't gonna let that happen.  They're not gonna let Greece prove their 1,500 trillion CDS market is a total fraud.

The only way to keep Greece from defaulting is turn on the printing press and loan them more money. 

But Germany says no, or Germany will leave the EU, and the whole Euro ponzi scheme will collapse.

So yes, Greece will default.  It's better to sacrifice Greece than watch their whole Euro ponzi scheme come crashing down.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:27 | Link to Comment THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Innovation me hole.

Most of that stuff is mindless churning of BTUs - look , what marks the pIigs out for the chop first is their extreme energy import dependency (they all top the euro energy charts) & tourism bias which makes them more vulnerable as the core pulls in their horns.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 08:54 | Link to Comment chindit13
chindit13's picture

Only slightly OT.....

Any interbank FX traders in attendance?  Who is doing the now every day 60-100 pip, two minutes EURUSD ramps?  Since these occur every time the dollar looks about to strengthen or hit a round number (1.3, 1.31, 1.32) the ramp is...how can I say...suspicious.  It is attributed to Greek deal rumors, but the non-coincident timing, as well as the relentless recurrence, suggest intervention.

Any info?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 09:17 | Link to Comment THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture
Member State Gross Energy
consumption1)
Net imports2) Energy
Dependency3)
    EU Member State Gross Energy
Consumption
Net imports Energy
Dependency
1 Cyprus 2.6 3 100%   15 Germany 349 215.5 61.3% 2 Malta 0.9 0.9 100%   16 Finland 37.8 20.9 54.6% 3 Luxembourg 4.7 4.7 98.9%   17 EU27 1825.2 1010.1 53.8% 4 Ireland 15.5 14.2 90.9%   18 Slovenia 7.3 3.8 52.1% 5 Italy 186.1 164.6 86.8%   19 France 273.1 141.7 51.4% 6 Portugal 25.3 21.6 83.1%   20 Bulgaria 20.5 9.5 46.2% 7 Spain 143.9 123.8 81.4%   21 Netherlands 80.5 37.2 38% 8 Belgium 60.4 53.5 77.9%   22 Sweden 50.8 19.8 37.4% 9 Austria 34.1 24.9 72.9%   23 Estonia 5.4 1.9 33.5% 10 Greece 31.5 24.9 71.9%   24 Romania 40.9 11.9 29.1% 11 Latvia 4.6 3.2 65.7%   25 Czech Republic 46.2 12.9 28% 12 Lithuania 8.4 5.5 64%   26 United Kingdom 229.5 49.3 21.3% 13 Slovakia 18.8 12 64%   27 Poland 98.3 19.6 19.9% 14 Hungary 27.8 17.3 62.5%   28 Denmark 20.9 -8.1 -36.84)

sorry

that stuff did not come out right - refer to  -  

 www.energy.eu

 

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!