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Trade War Escalates: China Threatens US Over Renewable Energy

Tyler Durden's picture




 

They were never just going to sit there and take it. With the election cycle hotting up, the Chinese were an easy target for any and every finger-pointing blame game that US politicians were cornered with - but they are coming out swinging.  As WaPo (via AP) reports, China's government has ruled that US support to six US solar and wind projects violates free trade rules - and while they have pledged (promises are worth what exactly Mr. Draghi?) to cooperate in developing technology, they now accuse each other of improperly supporting their own producers and obstructing foreign competition (can't we all just get along in this centrally planned world?). At a time when WTI is breaking out (over $97) and Brent as EUR-priced highs, China's commerce ministry has called on Washington to stop the support and give 'fair treatment' to Chinese renewable products. These tri-party tensions - oh yes, Europe is involved too as in July the EU was asked to raise tariffs on Chinese solar cells - are only set to get worse as every nation attempts to unilaterally centrally plan and promote their own suppliers in the hopes of generating higher-paid jobs.

 

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Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:46 | 2723448 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Ever "collaborate" with the chinese?  I have.  They want to know all about your process while sharing no information about theirs.  Some things never change.  The word China literally means "center of the universe" folks.  The U.S. elites have had a plan for quite some time, everybody will work for chinese wages, this is why the chinese where given unprecedented access and your markets and your jobs went to china. Who you going to believe, the politicians or your lying eyes?  Wake the fuck up people. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:49 | 2723465 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Your Right...

 

Chinee want to own the world...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:50 | 2723469 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

On "paper" they already do.  But what else would one expect from a centrally-planned, communist, state-run eCONomy.

Now about those paper promises...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:03 | 2723490 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Unless the USA "Grand Plan" is to DEFAULT on the Sovereign Debt, just like in EU Piggies...

The the Chinee and the rest of the Suckers holding Treacheries are Fecked.

 

Own More GOLD, and protect!

Like the Ruskies are doing right now...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:04 | 2723546 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

Rodney King Globalism " But but can't we all just get along?"

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:50 | 2723467 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Ever "collaborate" with the chinese?

 

Nope...but they made 99% of the crap I own.

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:53 | 2723484 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Hoarder capitalist. You didn't earn that. Someone else helped you earn that.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:08 | 2723566 ZeroDroids
ZeroDroids's picture

Zhong Guo is a term coined many moons ago during a time when China was split into warring kingdoms, with the central kingdom maintaining control, hence the "Middle Kingdom."  Not that the Chinese can't be xenophobic and arrogant, but Zhong Guo is an old term used to describe the political geograpy of a bygone era. 

What's happening today, though, in good old Zhong guo is no more than a corporatist invasion stamped with the WTO seal. 

My question is how the Nixon policies to open China and take the U.S. off the gold standard are related and their effects on each other?  Two huge coincidental policy moves that we are dealing with the ramifications of today perhaps more than ever.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:11 | 2724072 bushwarcrime
bushwarcrime's picture

I could write a book about that....if I could right..dang!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:19 | 2724650 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

'two huge coincidentals' --- parallel programs that must converge with a long enough time line. usually within a generation or two,...

ask the 'Fat Man', aka. Kissinger

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 16:54 | 2731661 ZeroDroids
ZeroDroids's picture

where's that sonofabitch when I need to ask a question?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:46 | 2723450 BadKiTTy
BadKiTTy's picture

If only someone could design a way of getting energy from all the bullsh&t that is generated by the central planners..."

K@

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:47 | 2723453 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

fuk china

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:47 | 2723455 Hype Alert
Hype Alert's picture

At least this won't affect the stock market.  [/sarc]  Onward and upward.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:53 | 2723483 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

indeed....not sure why everyone is waiting for the ECB or the FED to do something, they will not, not this meeting or next, but the markets will continue to think that something is coming at each and every timeframe leading up to each successive meeting.  Jackson's Hole will come and go with nothing, yet be equity bullish because it is coming at the next meeting of course, nothing there either, and the perfect market ramp right through November cuz the next meeting is in December.  Simple really.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:48 | 2723461 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Wait until they find out solar/wind doesn't work...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:52 | 2723477 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

the shill who down voted you obviously hasnt read about the success of the british wind projects....er..failure that is

 

nor are they aware of the pollution of all sorts involved in solar cells which pay for themselves right about the time they wear out

beautiful technology that requires sunlight ,yet degrades rapidly in the presence of, wait for it, sunlight

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:59 | 2723497 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Well, it sort of begs the question: why do perpetual motion machines need government subsidies in the first place? 

 

Shouldn’t these things be flying off the shelves?
Just think of the business opportunities you could pursue if you knew that (after a certain point) your cost of energy would be zero!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:36 | 2723714 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

JQ

calling people "shills" hardly makes you less one.

Lambasting "wind power"

as a potentially good environmentally-friendly and decentralized source of energy?

And solar power? Are you unaware of passive solar power for heating water and houses?

As for using solar power to create electricity, there is potential for it to be more environmentally friendly than most current methods of generating electricity.

(Are you  also against hydro-sourced power?

And what about geo-thermal?

Is there any energy source you approve?)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:19 | 2724098 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

i'm against solar and wind in the forms that destroy and pollute...its all about the rare earth element extraction

passive solar is about the best investment you can make

geo thermal is excellent in some forms

hydro depending on generation technique

i'm against attempting to support the present paradigm with a mythical magic bullet that allows us to consume and expand until there is nothing left of our home planet

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:58 | 2724837 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

 Unqualified objection to "solar" or "wind" energy generation is unreasonable.

Glad that you qualify your objections.

Actually, the qualifications may be the most essential part of your objections.  Destroying and polluting the planet and its inhabitants by any means is what many find disturbing. Whether it is done by war, industry, factory food production, or mass media stupefaction.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:27 | 2724394 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Centralized solar and wind projects are doomed to failure.  They are either uneconomic or cause too much interference with the energy status quo.  Decentralizing them is far too democratic.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:49 | 2723464 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

our support of solar/wind projects not only violates free trade rules, but apparently common sense rules as well

 

 

same as it ever was

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:52 | 2723476 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Do some some homework troll, the chinese government has been outspending the U.S. government on these projects 6:1 for the last ten years. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:57 | 2723488 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

its good that they waste their money at that rate

 

solyndra, cough cough

nuff said

 

and wheres the flaming chinese electric cars?

oh ,thats right, gm is building there now

never mind

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:58 | 2723506 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Hey idiot, the point was that if the U.S. is "breaking the law", the Chinese government was breaking it 6-fold.

Try to stay on topic, especially if you don't actually have anything intelligent to say.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:00 | 2723516 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

hey idiot, when you are driving your solar powered car down whitehall, then you can call people names

the fact the technology is destructive and ineffectual is on topic

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:03 | 2723538 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

just because you can centrally plan it, does not mean you can make it work as advertised

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:06 | 2723559 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

That was my point.  I am not an engineer of solar wafers and neither is this troll.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:14 | 2723590 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

when you are driving your solar powered car down

 

No thanks.....I'll walk and get there 10 times faster.

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:27 | 2723662 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

excellent

 

it amuses me to no end to see people who think we can continue our policy of endless consumption if only we can come up with the magic energy bullet to replace fossil fuels with

theres just not enuf resources on the planet to replace the fleet of vehicles with some nifty new solar wind thorium battery powered jetson inspired crapmobile

and the whole system is based on infinite growth on a finite planet that needs off planet financing just to pay off the phantom debt interest

and i'm the fucking troll

but at least i dont live in fantasy land, so i'll be happy to walk with you

better to burn off some of this fucking chik-fil-a anyhow

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:06 | 2723551 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I am in agriculture, have been for 20+ years, that is my area of expertise.  I know of two small saw mills near our property in Colorado that run their operations entirely on solar.  Very efficient photon capture at 7,000+ feet, "destructive" technology indeed.

Thanks for identifying yourself as a troll.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:15 | 2723592 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

be curious how you identify me as a troll

but for your edification, i suggest you raed about the environmental damage caused by mining the rare earth elements used to make the cells in the first place

add in the energy cost for the manufacture

subtract the 20 year lifespan of the cells

factor in same for the batteries used to capture the energy created

 

and if it wasnt for massive subsidies this technology would fall on its face

like someone else pointed out, it would be flying off the shelves if it worked as well as advertised

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:42 | 2724481 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

you are a troll ! most of your statements are either completely untrue or overgeneralized - there are multiple solar technologies that deploy systems  - WITHOUT - the use of rare earth materials - if you were serious you would know that

the overwhelming production of thin film panels -( one production method )- use amorphous silicon by products from silicon wafer production for semi conductor use

the systems are economic at longitude and latitude "locations" which have direct and indirect sunlight concentration over a length of time during the day that they dont need subsidies  - you can produce for less than $.10 cents KwH and install for less than $1.30 Kw - IRR's north of 22%

these panels can be insured with major UK insurance programs for the life of 25 years and work beyond that time frame - so if you are right why would an actuary insure the product backed by their balance sheet ? this is not 2007 !

the promote and generalizations you spew is mental diarrhea for someone with shit for brains ! stop the nonsense

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:19 | 2723609 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

The law of conservation of energy, first formulated in the nineteenth century, is a law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time. The total energy is said to be conserved over time. For an isolated system, this law means that energy can change its location within the system, and that it can change form within the system, for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy, but that energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

In the twentieth century, the definition of energy was broadened. It was found that particles that have rest mass, and those that do not, are subject to interconversions. There can occur creation and annihilation of (ponderable) matter particles, and imponderable non-matter particles. Matter is then not conserved. Matter particles (such as electrons) can be converted to non-matter (such as photons), or even into potential or kinetic energy. In such a transformation process of an isolated system that is alternatively described by these apparently distinct quantities, neither the mass nor the energy changes over time. Conservation of total energy, and conservation of total mass, each still holds as a law in its own right. When stated alternatively, in terms of mass and of energy, they appear as the apparently distinct laws of the nineteenth century.

A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that no intended "perpetual motion machine" can perpetually deliver energy to its surroundings.[2] Any delivery of energy by such a device would result in delivery of mass also, and the machine would lose mass continually until it eventually disappeared.

 

 

its a law of physics

not sure why you arent familiar with it....lawsofphysics

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:29 | 2723684 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

No shit.  It is all about how you invest the available capital and resources.  This a trading site in case you missed it and those solar panels are still working just fine on Otts Mill.

But I digress, and will summarize the first two laws of thermodynamics for the layman;

1st law - "you can't win"

Second law - "you can't even break even" (entropy is a bitch).

Again, try to stay on topic.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:42 | 2723741 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

i will gladly trade you a solar cell today for a net energy gain on tuesday

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:14 | 2724081 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

You clearly don't understand what is meant by a "closed system". Wait until day. Go outside. See the big glowing thing in the sky? It dumps gigawatts of power on us every day. The earth is not a closed system.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:28 | 2724129 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

please weigh the amount of energy gain we can actually get against the environmental damage we do in the act of getting it, then factor in what amount of our enegy needs we can actually replace with alternate technologies

 

i look to the british experience with wind energy

i look to the fact that solar technology degrades rapidly and loses efficiency rapidly

resources should be allocated in terms of graetest long lasting benefit

when someone comes up with a technology that harnesses the power of the sun efficiently without collateral ecological damage i'll be on board

passive solar is about the best at this at the moment

but centarl planning leads to things like the destruction of already produced solar components as happened in the solyndra cluster

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:51 | 2723470 user2011
user2011's picture

Everyone should look after their own interests,  don't vote for politicians.    Be a politician yourself.   Join the election and you have one hell of a secure job.  

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:52 | 2723474 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

AH,,,,,,, the sweet hint of tarrifs on a hot summer's night.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:53 | 2723481 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

every nation attempts to unilaterally centrally plan and promote their own suppliers in the hopes of generating higher-paid jobs. Equals global disconnect, step one.

Step two is collapse of international trade.

Then comes step three..

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 11:52 | 2724000 Lofty
Lofty's picture

Globilisation is dead and protectionism is here. Just hope you're wrong about step three..

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:57 | 2723504 Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

McArthur was right 70 years ago. we should have used 30 atomic bombs against china

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 11:06 | 2723848 AvoidingTaxation
AvoidingTaxation's picture

Sapevo che eri tu, prima di leggere chi eri.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:56 | 2724537 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

They would have been better used on Washington, D.C.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 09:59 | 2723512 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

Better a trade war than a nuclear war.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:03 | 2723539 Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

i was sarcastic ;)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:00 | 2723518 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

The trade imbalance is just not sustainable - for both American and Chinese grunt workers.

I wank daily to the thought of China shutting down trade with the US.  Oh, the poor corporations and their profit margins! 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:00 | 2723520 Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture

Damn, what does Leo the K have to say about this? Miss that dude.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:07 | 2723562 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

Yes I miss Leo too. Hope his health is ok.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:03 | 2723544 bushwarcrime
bushwarcrime's picture

Just wait till the Hydrogen economy takes off boy...

we'll show them, btw Prince Faisel and the boys were at the ranch for a BBQ the other day, they're fine, why do you ask.?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 10:42 | 2723743 rustymason
rustymason's picture

The U.S. is the only country which actually believes in "Fair Trade" fairy tales. Screw China and their slave labor-made trash. Let the tarriffs begin! 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 11:15 | 2723873 plongka10
plongka10's picture

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 11:21 | 2723889 covert
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:40 | 2724467 fiddy pence haf...
fiddy pence haff pound's picture

yup. fairy tales the US believes. As long as they don't give taxpater money to a private bank.

 

I'd love to see Burkina Faso take the US to whatever the fluck the Trade body is that says

governments can't help businesses. And add the UK and its PPP arrangement which 

lobs easy cash at companies.

Then we might have some capitalism, somewhere

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 11:02 | 2723826 BRoquet100
BRoquet100's picture

Not only are they running out of cash, but China and Japan are looking at a "uncivil disagreement".

"China claims the islands have been a part of its territory since ancient times, but Japan says it took control of the archipelago in the late 1890s after making sure they were uninhabited."

And add to the whole conflict over there for fishing rights, gas rights, and oil rights, China is flexing it's muscle - but can it last? Will China crash?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:08 | 2724596 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Hopefully right after the US crashes.

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:23 | 2724662 monad
monad's picture

California illegal immigration stats, before quietly being taken down by the Obama revisionists:

Hispanic 45%

Chinese 38%

India 12-15%

All Other ~3%

Cost of illegal aliens to California : at least 1.2 billion per year

Pay up WaPo, plus damages.

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