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Tungsten-Filled 10 Oz Gold Bar Found In The Middle Of Manhattan's Jewelry District
It is one thing for tungsten-filled gold bars to appear in the UK, or in Germany: after all out of sight, and across the Atlantic, certainly must mean out of mind, and out of the safe. However, when a 10 ounce 999.9 gold bar bearing the stamp of the reputable Swiss Produits Artistiques Métaux Précieux (PAMP, with owner MTP) and a serial number (serial #038892, likely rehypothecated in at least 10 gold ETFs across the world but that's a different story), mysteriously emerges in the heart of the world's jewerly district located on 47th street in Manhattan, things get real quick. Moments ago, Myfoxny reported that a 10-ounce gold bar costing nearly $18,000 turned out to be a counterfeit. The discovery was made by the dealer Ibrahim Fadl, who bought the PAMP bar in question from a merchant who has sold him real gold before. "But he heard counterfeit gold bars were going around, so he drilled into several of his gold bars worth $100,000 and saw gray tungsten -- not gold. The bar was filled with tungsten, which weighs nearly the same as gold but costs just over a dollar an ounce."
What makes so devious is a real gold bar is purchased with the serial numbers and papers, then it is hollowed out, the gold is sold, the tungsten is put in, then the bar is closed up. That is a sophisticated operation.
MTB, the Swiss manufacturer of the gold bars, said customers should only buy from a reputable merchant. The problem, he admits, is Ibrahim Fadl is a very reputable merchant.
Raymond Nessim, CEO Manfra, Tordell & Brookes, said he has reported the situation to the FBI and Secret Service.
The Secret Service, which deals with counterfeits, said it is investigating.
And cue panic on the realization that virtually any gold bar in the world, not just those in Europe and Australia, which have already had close encounters with Tungsten substitutes, but also New York may be hollowed out and have a real worth of a few dollars max. Which, sadly, is fitting considering our main story from last night was the realization that an unknown amount of Chinese iron ore had either never existed or had simply vaporized, and was no longer serving as the secured collateral to various liabilities circulating in the electronic ether. After all, only the most naive out there could conceive of gold being sacrosanct when every other asset class is being diluted to infinity by a regime that has long since run out of money.
As for gold-based transactions on West 47th street: look for that market to grind to a halt at least for as long as it takes for this scandal to be forgotten too.
The only open question remaining will be how much of the gold located 90 feet below Libert 33 is in the same Tungstenized format. For what it's worth: it is unlikely we will ever find out.
This is what glaring gold counterfeiting looks like.
And for the reading challenged:
New York News | NYC Breaking News
All that said, with false flags rampant these days, we would not be surprised if this is merely yet another attempt to discredit gold, this time physical, as an undilutable medium of warehousing wealth. So buyer beware: in a time when everyone is broke, triple check before exchanging one store of wealth for another.
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Crap! I have bought a lot of metal from them over the past 6 years. The hampster wheel is spinning hard right now.
I just drilled my Eagles and there's a chocolate-y filled center...mmmm.....
Thankk God I bought all my gold several years ago when it was much cheaper. Used Apmex. They seem reputable.
Is that a scripted line from one of their infomercials?
yeah, how many guys on ZH have ever visited their factory?
hahahaha so fucking true!!!!!!!!!
Used Apmex. They seem reputable.
YES!, JPM is their Bank................................no shit.
I esp like their low prems...........not.
oops, I guess I made an error the other day when I said 10oz bars do not have tungsten just the bigger 100+ oz bars you should worry about. I take it back.
This explains why incandescent bulbs were banned. They were driving up the price of producing this "gold".
Complicated process is an understatement for this forgery. The cabal that wants to devalue gold could just as easily devalue the USD the same way. Actually, one of the teories out there is that the collapse is happening at a snails pace due to the different interests of each cabal..... ie one wants gold devalued, another wants the USD devalued, etc. Either way, fakes aren't new...... Pawn shops regularly drill bars, and grocery stores magic marker your 20's for a reason.
yep. everywhere i believe. have personally seen 10's and 20's
Get used to it. More on the way...............................
Invested in GLD, SLV? Chump!
Real Gold Bitchez!
Psy-op time?
It is a legit concern. Better figure out where it originated.
But if I remember correctly, with the right instruments there is a way to test for tungsten without having to drill a freaking hole in all your bullion.
But if I remember correctly, with the right instruments there is a way to test for tungsten without having to drill a freaking hole in all your bullion.
Using reputable dealers is the key, and coins of the realm.
Also, now that this appears to be likely a pandemic waiting to be found out, ALL DEALERS should invest in, and check all their inventories, before sales, and before purchased.
What is a TESTER worth to a multi billlion a year $$$ dealer ?. Sub Chicken manure.
DupeID!!!!!!!
Buy only krugs, maples etc and simply check the dimensions and weights. Do your homework and evaluate the sellers. Those will be good. Not a bad idea maybe to pay a bit more for 1/10 or sovereigns at what .24 ounce accepted everywhere. Trading will be more easy with smaller sizes.. Here in CR we can do Plata too.
Of course if you have millions of fiat buy bars ,WTF
The shit has been thrown and who the hell knows how long it takes to arrive at the fan blades.
I am so glad I am out of USSR and encourage everyone who can (and I know many can not and understand that ) get the fuck out ASAP:
Those that cant buy more lead and Maybe I can come up to help (if you dont hang me up on a the lampost) and we take back the republic.
Long Live The good doctor Ron Paul,
Cheers from ZHr en Costa Rica
bought a tungsten shmelter on ebay bitchez.
Here is how this plays out for gold owners (only partial sarcasm intended):
Owners of physical gold suffer 10% loss in value since physical gold is often not real.
Owners of paper gold products receicve full spot price since paper is a claim on real gold.
You gotta admit in the world as we know it, things might be seen this way.
Are those "paper gold products" anything like a warehouse receipt?
For what it's worth, in addition to weight, diameter & thickness, I have been checking the sound frequencies in my gold AE's--as an added fraud detection step. I got an app for my android phone called Speedy Spectrum Analyzer ($5) which measures the various frequencies of the coins. Simply turn on the app, twirl your gold AE on a hard surface (eg, marble countertop, concrete floor, etc), and look for the correct frequencies to display on your phone's screen. I've measured 24 gold AEs this way (ranging in dates from 1990 - 2008) and the frequencies are remarkably similar. There are 5-6 peaks around these frequencies: 4.7Hz, 8.3Hz, 10.6Hz, 17.6Hz, and 18.15Hz (all frequencies given here have plus/minus .1 or so). It's just another tool to use to verify accuracy.
I am undone. That is remarkable - and useful technology. I hope the developer makes more money on that than Angry Birds. This could literally be the difference between life and death within the next two years.
Don't think my gold is real, just check it out on my Droid. Better yet - check it out on your Droid.
This is like - liquidity - you know - somebody really doing God's work. People will pay for liquidity. Otherwise we have to get on your knees and b*&w the Bernank to buy your questionable coins like so many MBS.
I use The Fisch. Interesting concept with the soundwaves though.
Fisch actually wouldn't detect a "perfect" tungsten fake, since it works on pretty much the same principle as Archemedes.
I don't think it's a high risk, but even Fisch admits they wouldn't detect a tungsten or platinum fake.
So Speedy Spectrum Analyzer it is!
How do you know your Fisch isn't fake?
The counterfiets are counterfeit and the real stuff's counterfeit. Gotta make sure it's not real and counterfeit.
"... but costs just over a dollar an ounce"
LOL.
Just as a quick one-minute tutorial on scam avoidance, an Ultrasonic Thickness Guage (UTG) is a cheap hand-held sonar that can be used to spot fakes.
The UTG measures how long it takes a sound pulse to be reflected from the back of an object. You can do two things with that -- if you know the speed of sound in the material you're measuring, you can compute the thickness. If you know the thickness, you can compute the speed of sound in the material.
With a known quantity like a US Eagle, you'll know both. You can put the speed of sound of the gold alloy into the UTG, put the UTG sensor on the coin, and measure the thickness, and it should be the exact same thickness of an eagle. Other materials, like tungsten, while weighing almost the same as gold, have radically different speeds for sound transmission, and will throw the reading way out of what.
UTGs are not at all expensive, and the prices have been plunging. On Amazon.com right now you can get a UTG for about $160, or less than 10% the price of a single 1oz Eagle. If you know the specs on a known-good gold coin, it's almost impossible for a fake to get by you, especially for smaller objects like coins.
Right?
Did this Ibrahim Fadl 'reputable' gold dealer really take a 3/4" drill bit to $100,000 in gold bars?
I wonder if he still uses wooden wheels on his horse and buggy or if he's updated to rubber tires.
I would bet that he drilled after he had a bar or bars fail other tests, including this one.
He should have tested them with ultrasound before purchasing them.
...if he was reputable
Its QE for the gold market
Actually it's much easier to counterfeit a $100 or $50 or $20 FRN and pass it successfully. Someone wants to fuck with the gold market cause you can't sell 100k in gold bars to a reputable dealer and not get traced back to the source. Barney friggin Fife could solve this crime.
That reminds me I was in a bar once and a girl, presumably someone the bartender knew, said to him "can you change this I think it's counterfeit" so he glanced at it for a split second then exchanged it without a thought.
Looks like one of those gold "chocolate filled" casino chips! Just doesn't melt when you put it in your mouth!
Maybe it's best to buy the gold eagles; doesn't seem like you could drill into them and stuff them because of their size.
Also, could this be a ploy of some sort to get more people to buy paper gold and silver? It's a disturbing story if true.
Eventually even these tungsten bars will be worth more than the paper that bought them...
Is it me or does that thing look factory fresh and unretouched?
Isn't that Swiss gold refiner the one that launders gold from illegal South African mining operations?
No, they're the refiner that was responsible for laundering some of the Yamashita-Black Eagle Trust gold.
Bernake told his masters he would only do QE 3 if they promised him to debauch the physical gold market as much as he debauched the fiat currency. Side bar: A few years ago I melted down a credit suisse bar and it was clean. I only buy one ounce maples mostly though these days. I trust the Canucks.
Unfortunately, that's backward logic - unless you physically and personally receive your maples from the factory that makes them, which I don't believe is possible/offered.
Your logic is backwards because any false-flag corporation or government who makes fake maples is not trust worthy --- and they're the people who made your fake maples, not the canucks.
There is a well known (well, to metal heads anyway) photograph of a 100 oz silver bar that was drilled and filled with lead and the end smoothed over. It apprently fooled someone, but it's doubtful the weight was right, and I doubt that it would pass the "ring" test. No way...
One interesting property of silver is its thermal conductivity - place an ice cube on your bar and watch how fast it melts! Another test is take a strong (neodymium) magnet, and, with the bar at an angle, let the magnet slide down the surface. Silver is "diamagnetic" (whatever the hell that is) and the magnet will move down the surface, but in slow motion.
Anyway, that 10 ounce bar looked fake to begin with, to my eyes. Anyone got a genuine bar to compare? Fonts, color, shape, etc.
Box full at the bottom of the lake.
Rented a bad Canoe last trip.
Well, now that the SS, er, Secret Service is on it, I feel better. And I am doubly secure in the knowledge that the DOJ may even get involved. I wonder what White House advisors Beyonce and Jay Z think of this?
I heard Jay Z advised Obama to get gold teeth for his daughters and Mitchelle.
shhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit....
Never let a crisis go to waste! The midnight oil is burning.
the japs just sold thousands of these fakes to china; the argumrent over the islands is a smokescreen!
Interesting fact - very pure tungsten is quite mallable and soft. Trouble is we are talking putity on the same level as they refine semi-condctors for transisters. The expense of making it that pure is so high it might as well be gold.
Why is tungsten's Young's modulus so high if that is true?
False flag or not... this is why I always stick with 1oz gold coins or smaller fractionals.
I wonder if that guy was able to get his currency back?
This is the reason I will not buy any bullion over an ounce. Hmmm, can you put tungsten in an one ounce bar or coin?
you can put gold plating on pretty much anything
Problem ,reaction, solution.
Now the government will have to confiscate , uh recall, all gold to be inspected. They promise to give it back. Someday. It's for your own good. And the childrens' too.
ok the utg comanies did this...
Ummm....
Anyone for… Tungsten to $2, 000!
Anybody…
Just tryin' to help out.
•?•
V-V
Shit, this coulda been done after hours in the same foundry they make the real bullion bars. The stamping machines and all are right there.
I'd look for an inside job, or maybe a central bank inside job.
The real power of Fight Club is that it's everywhere. There are only a tiny number of people worth robbing, after all.
If you go to the LBMA website you'll find all of the information as to what constitutes good delivery, who is approved for manufacture, assaying, transportation and vau;ting.
Of particular interest, note the section that deals with the periodic inspection of a newly minted bar and the LBMA's means of testing. Overly simplified but as of a year or two ago it was as follows... LBMA tells refiner that it's coming to visit and wants a bar. Refiner has bar waiting. LBMA takes bar and inspects. Results etc., etc., etc.
But what about the rest of the fucking bars that are not inspected? The refiner/manufacturer is certified as good stuff maker. he keeps selling LBMA bars.
And what if they're salted, Wolframed right there in River City Manufacturing? Tools and dies already in places, etc., etc., etc, major excess profits.
And if he'll do it with those, why not any refining jobs...
And so what it it turns up bad later on?
Who coulda done it?
Anybody anywhere anytime.....
A Highly Opaque Business tr Say the Least, at Very Best.
And what thieves would be attracted to such businesses?
No, come on, not central banks?
The bar shown is FACTORY made from start to finish. The tungsten is squared off and flat, no way this is a drill out job. You would need a casting die with pins holding the tungsten in place while you pour the gold. And where is the best equipment to produce a factory spec knock off? You are correct! At the factory.
(Of course the CIA may have had a factory built in China for all the Clinton era tungsten that was purchased. I mean they also have to worry about production costs.)
Very UNLIKELY in Switzerland, everything runs according to schedule, is extremely neat, well documented (and recorded for posterity at the refineries). Nosy neighbors will complain to the police if there is smoke rising at an unacceptable time.
The LBMA quality controls are more suspect, especially with the recent proliferation of Russian & Chinese refiners.
Smells more like an OLD SCHOOL TRADE WAR, discredit the opposition.
I meant to say any similar generic foundry. Thanks poster below!
I buy all my PMs direct from a melter...of course, I don't get to watch the actual melting process, so I've still no way of verifying the authenticity of my gold and silver either, but I do expect them to eventually buy it back from me as though it were the 99.999% pure item that they sold it to me as!
Did they show the same bar in the video all in one piece in the package? The serial number looked the same, but the last digit was hard to see for sure. If it was the same one, how did they get it back to pristine condition in the wrapper? Did this particular bar happen to appear in a video at some time before it was drilled and peeled? Did the buyer video his original purchase of the fake bar?
I could not tell for sure if the serial number was the same. But if it is. WTF? A setup?
Anyone can easily detect a fake gold bar by melting it or drilling it. That is why it is good money. Good luck detecting fake paper money.
I'll take the wrappers please.
Stick with 1 troy ounce bars and coins. They are thin making them much harder to counterfeit and the cost to counterfeiting smaller bars is cost prohibitive.
Easy to detect an altered bar.
Density =Mass/Volume
Density of Pure Gold is 19.32 g/cm3 or 19,320 kg/m3
Buy yourself a set of Ohaus triple beams and a graduated cylinder large enough to fit your gold bar
Add bar to Cylinder add water write down volume.
Take Bar out write down volume of remaining water.
The difference is the volume of the Gold Bar
Weigh Bar
mass of Gold bar/Volume better equal 19.32 g/cm3 or you are buying tungsten.
Tungsten's density is 19.25 g.cm3, only about a third of a percent less than gold. How are you going to measure to that precision with a graduated cylinder?
With a graduated cylinder with an error less than 1 millimeter cu. and triple beams scales.
If it is not on the money, exactly, don't do the deal.
My sacles have never done me wrong although I measured other substances.
Still money is a serious matter and if you are are accurate and have precise instruments you can do it.
If the dealer is worth his salt he won't mind.
Tungsten actually has a small range of densities depending on the way it is processed. It can be made to the exact same density as gold. Get a damn ultrasonic thickness gauge.
This requires precision, and taking the bar out will also take some of the water out (via adhesion).
Try it the other way... water in first, measure, then bar, and measure the difference.
You are completely wrong, and its misleading to tell people to check gold this way. This will NOT detect a tungsten filled bar, the weight and density of the bar will be exactly the same - there are some NDT ways to detect this, ultrasonic, or electrical - density measurement wil NOT work.
The smallest of air bubles trapped in the indentations of the stamped metal will result in an error greater than the difference between W and Au...
This can only result in higher prices for gold. Let the world know that the current inventory is debased. Seems paper dollars and bonds are also suspect and worth, well, less.
I see demand for tungsten on the rise...
Have you stop to think ? SP500 was to 1.475 last week. the main support is 1.250......
So.....VXX has showed a insane bullish divergences in last 9 months.....
So...If SP500 go straight to 1.250 in a hard correction, the height of supposed triangle is 230-240 points......another up to 1.400 and finally hard correction breaking down 1.250 would be 230 is equal a 1010 points,last support of may-2010......
1.250 - 240= 1.010.
This would be a principal movement to next 6-10 months before a hard crash until 600-700 of SP500...
See here: http://pracompraroupravender.blogspot.com.br/2012/09/nao-menospreze-o-vxx-pois-1250-do-sp500.html
For any shape, coins or bars or chain links, a compression wave transducer, a calibration criterion, and an imersion tank is all that is needed to reliably verify content. This is not hard to do, and that fact taints any credibility about the reported AuW counterfieting here.
A volumetric cydinder and a scale is all you need.
D=M/V
If I were going to spend $18,000 on Gold you should be able to do a simple density calculation.
Beg to differ on that point. The particular physical property of W that make it so desirable as a counterfiet for Au is its density: 19.3 grams per cubic centimeter versus 19.3 grams per cubic centimeter. Thus, your cylinder and scale absolutely will not indicate a difference. However, due to the equilibrium crystal structure of the respective elements, FCC vs BCC, the acoustic impedence and characteristic velocity of sound are measurably different for the different materials. This is the basis for an ultrasonic delineation between materials.
Tungsten, also known as wolfram, is a chemical element with the chemical symbol W and atomic number 74. Its density, similar to that of gold, allows tungsten to be used in jewelry as an alternative to gold or platinum. Metallic tungsten is harder than gold alloys (though not as hard as tungsten carbide), and is hypoallergenic, making it useful for rings that will resist scratching, especially in designs with a brushed finish.
Because the density is so similar to gold (tungsten is only 0.36% less dense), tungsten can also be used in counterfeiting of gold bars, such as by plating a tungsten bar with gold, which has been observed since the 1980s, or taking an existing gold bar, drilling holes, and replacing the removed gold with tungsten rods. The densities are not exactly the same, and other properties of gold and tungsten differ, but gold-plated tungsten will pass superficial tests.
I think you are mistaken to suggest that W is used in jewelry as an Au substitute, because outside its industrial use, there is nothing aesthetically or vainly precious about it. W has an extremely high melting point, and is very hard/strong even to elevated temperatures (witness its use as an incandescent filament), with relative low ductility (fewer slip planes, work hardens rapidly), which are not properies that lend it to jewelry making. Alloys with gold (eg: Pt, Cu, Ni, Ag) for jewelry typically have similar high ductility properties, which is desirable for jewelry making.
A volumetric cydinder and a scale is all you need.
D=M/V
If I were going to spend $18,000 on Gold you should be able to do a simple density calculation.
Just for kicks and giggles. What are your pass/fail measurements in SI units?
Folks, this isn't the first time this year...
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/03/25/the-problem-of-fake-gol...
And for $500, the world's top supplier of tungsten is. . .
And for $500, the world's top supplier of tungsten is. . .
The PPT forced oil down today so now they are aiming at the shiny metals.
OT Can we push this one to over 100,000 hits? (bought my gold a long time ago anyway)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQSpbwKkdg&list=PL08FD35E184A24E7F&index=0&feature=plcp
Maybe they can change all the TV commercials now to:
Tungsten! It has never been worth nothing!
Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter
Hey Squeeky - Always love your closing tag line "Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter". Not sure why but that line and your avatar always make me laugh. So I +1 you all the time.
Sincerely,
Tom Cruise
Edit: I lied... I'm not really Tom Cruise. But I'll date a Scientologist if she buys me dinner at the Hungry Heffer (Norm...!!).
Hi Angus!!!
Thank you!!! I am glad you enjoy it.
Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter
Only your local beer and pussy are real according to Marc Faber.
I've drank his local beer and beg to differ. As for the latter, testing each specimen for authenticity would be recommended. However, in that part of the world, there are a high number counterfeits... Caveat Emptor.
All true. You can now get San Miguels which are pretty good though. Is that local enough?
I look at San Miguel the same way I look at the Thai variety of Heineken, and I'll take Chang over either.
Is there anything they won't debase?
theres more lead and copper in the hill at westpoint ky [knobcreek] than gold next door at fort knox
Fort knox can change it's name to Fort Tungsten?
I suggest changing the name to Fort Hard Knocks.
Are we headed for a shortage of tungsten ?
This is why I buy old, low premium coins that nobody wants. Then weigh/measure them methodically upon arrival. I've never had a problem.
I think 10oz silver bars are okay, too.
gonna get me
a tungsten sniffing dog ..
I don't think it will discredit Gold. In fact, I think it could have the opposite effect. What happens if everyone starts wanting to inspect thier Gold. We could quickly see a run on Gold.
It's not realistic to be hauling around a drill press when one is shopping for 10oz. bars of gold.
I'm suspicious of this "finding." An ultrasound tester is cheaper than the value of an $18K gold bar. Why would you mess around with drilling a hole in the bar? I suspect it's a banker lead false flag to discredit gold as suggested.
Yep
Expect a margin hike soon (can't wait to get dollars out of JPM and buy!)
I agree <sarc>. I'll run right out and stuff another $50k into my 401k because gold is shit.
</sarc>
X-rays. Slip your local radiologist a $20 (don't wait too long or Ben will make sure it's a $100 bill, minimum) and you can certify two-dozen bars for yourself with one digital file probably showing readable serial numbers.
X-rays won't do it. Medical x-ray machines don't exceed 100-200 KV. That would only give you a few microns of penetration. You'd need megavolt x-rays to show something.
This smells like someone with their finger on the PANIC button.
I remember a few years back with the counterfeit bonds in Italy ( CHIASSO INCIDENT),I felt the same way.Someone trying to make a point.Currencies imploding,margin calls,shit collateral,petrodollar peg at risk because of Iran and others.Perhaps we had it wrong.It isn't a black swan we are expecting,but a bunch of baby swans everywhere...
If this Sino/Japanese thing takes off the USN is going to be stretching it thin between the straits of Hormuz and China sea.
drill baby drill!
Allow me to fix that: "Drill and Re-FILL"... with tungsten of course.
I bet,the gold bars in Fort Knox dont have even tungstein inside.Maybe some sort of concrete.Or sea shells.
From the video, it seems that there is some space between the tungsten bar and the gold "wrapping", so the bar was not hollowed out. The gold around the tungsten looks like a stamped sheet. That would be a lot easier to do, and could be calibrated quite easily.
Anybody with some decent equipment could do it, and the tungsten bar inside can have a little bit of lead added to it in a hole to equalize out the weight.
The guy who decided to drill into his own gold bars must have suspected something, meaning that maybe the gold wrapping was not perfect, and there was a slight rattle inside. Or perhaps, the weight was a few grains off and the counterfeiting is therefore relatively easy to detect. Remember these are serialized and certified bars, so if the weight is off by a few grains, that's actually a big deal.
Either way, the guy must have been seriously convinced that even if he did drill and find gold, he would not be out a ton of money but would get some peace of mind. Kudos to him.
I'd say stick to coins, and smaller coins at that. Buy them, then weigh them individually.
flyonmywall:
"From the video ... a little bit of lead added to it in a hole to equalize out the weight."
WHAT!!?? To make it LIGHTER?
Total f'ing fail.
Densitiies:
11.34 g/cc lead
19.32 Gold
19.25 Tung
And you had 6 up votes!!!!!.
On a long enough time line all gold bars turn to tungsten.
Don't buy the heavy weights bitchez... stick to one ounce rounds or bars. All they can do with those is "clip" them. A cheap digital scale that fits in your pocket will take care of that fraud. Thankfully, silver is still too cheap for anyone to fuck with it.
Keep stacking (not tungsten!!!).
Edit: flyonmywall - I didn't read your post before I submitted mine. I see we are thinking along the same lines.
better start buying junior miners-they at least have ORE. Not fake Swiss accreditation
Me thinks the conspiracy is that 'they' don't want you taking delivery of your gold bars. Instead they just want you to 'invest' in GLD so as to let the repo extravaganza continue. But that is just me.
The serial # in the first photo DOES NOT MATCH the mangled bar in the 3rd photo. looks like 038892 insteadd
I just noticed the same thing, and I think you're right on the 2nd serial.
Wow. Just slightly better quality than the $ notes Ben is fabricating with CTRL + P
i just drilled some tungsten bars i have and they are filled with gold..so go figure...?!
Tungsten abundance: Universe by weight = 0.5 parts per billion; Universe by atoms = 3.0 X 10^-3 ppb; Sun by weight = 4 ppb; Sun by atoms = 0.03 ppb; Earth by weight = 1.1 X 10^3 ppb; Earth by atoms = 120 ppb;
Gold abundance: Universe by weight = 0.6 parts per billion; Universe by atoms = 4.0 X 10^-3 ppb; Sun by weight = 1 ppb; Sun by atoms = 0.01 ppb; Earth by weight = 3.1 ppb; Earth by atoms = 0.3 ppb;
Only if the Universe produced your tungsten bars. Sorry. On Earth Gold still loses the abundance war.
Great try, Hannah.
earth gold..? there are some buttfucking wackos out there in the internetland.
Did anybody notice the bar above here on this page the last 2 numbers of the serial number are "92" and the serial number in the video ends with a "907" but its suppose to be the same "salted" bar ??
Either there is more than (1) one salted bar or...
I smell a RAT !!!
He said he bought many of them.
Tylers' heading is "BAR" not "BARS" and throughout the thread he (Tyler) only references (1) "ONE" bar. Then in the video it is unclear if it was one bar or more. In the video the reporter says the guy drilled into several bars and saw tungsten. Then he references one bar "single" was counterfeit more than one time. So which is it "BAR" or "BARS"
Tyler ?
Yep - I noticed the same thing, it was definitely more than 1 bar.
Also notice some numbers look CAST vs machine engraved ....
Something does NOT smell right all the way 'round ...
buying bars and rounds is not the way to go. if .gov decides to confiscate gold again your vault will be emptied. i have been buying handfuls of junk jewelry, both silver and gold, many with gemstones. .gov won't take jewelry. your rounds(including coins) are going to finance the new .gov. and currency.
besnook,
Your post is foolish. 1 can of 6 dollar mapp gas and you can turn a coin or a bar into a lump or jewelry.
Come on man !
I think real PAMPs come packaged in PAMP ... packaging - not like those plastic placeholders in the picture.
http://www.apmex.com/Category/1151/Pamp_Suisse_Gold_Bars__Pendants.aspx
Lookie at the pics!
Not like that stuff can't be faked anyways.
Where in the supply chain would the counterfiet be most effective, and have the lowest probability for detection - from the original 'trustworthy' manufacturer.
I wouldn't call it a 'real' bar until I'd tested it -no matter the source.
There must be a signature conductivity that is detectable as not being a piece of pure gold.
Precisely measure the bar's displacement of pure water. Precisely measure the mass of the bar. Compare the mass/displaced-water ratio of the suspect bar to that of a "known" good gold bar. Would that be an effective technique to detect counterfeits?
Oops! Not!
The Tungsten/Gold density ratio is .997409, a difference of only .2591%. It would be very difficult for even a sophisticated buyer to detect a counterfeit 10-ounce bar.
The magnetic properties are different. But, again it is probably not a test that even a sophisticated buyer could perform.
No wonder that they are getting away with this counterfeiting technique!
Some very pertinent questions:
o Would anybody care to guess at how many counterfeits from the country of ***** ***** are in investor vaults around the world? (No guessing. No specific country intended.)
o How many ETFs are holding counterfeit minted gold bars and what is the proportion between countereit and real?
o Are any ETFs in on the counterfeiting?
o Was any ETF established to specifically launder the profits from this counterfeiting organization? It would be great cover and undetectable by any auditing or accounting investigation.
The potential of this counterfeiting technique gets a grade of A+ as far as I am concerned. Short of drilling holes in every bar it will take a graduate-level university materials science lab to detect counterfeits based on physical properties. Close visual examination and a documented paper trail may not be adequate if the counterfeits are being produced by a sovereign nation.
Some selected physical values for each metal are:
Tungsten: Atomic weight = 183.84; density = 19.250 g / cm^3; molar volume = 9.47 cm^3; velocity of sound = 5174 m/s; thermal conductivity = 170 W / (m * Kelvin); electrical resistivity = 5 X 10^-8 Ohms/m; magnetic ordering: paramagnetic;
Gold: Atomic weight = 196.96655; density = 19.300 g / cm^3: molar volume: 10.21 cm^3; velocity of sound = 1740 m/s; thermal conductivity = 320 W / (m * Kelvin); electrical resistivity = 2.2 X 10^-8 Ohms/m; magnetic ordering: diamagnetic;
get 5, or larger, bars. that should make it easier
I would like to see the Swiss company whose hallmark is on that bar evaluate this piece of crap.
The swiss pamp company did it
I went over to APMEX to compare to photo of a real bar.
It's hard to tell from the photo, but the serial number looks raised while on a real bar I believe it is stamped. The font of the serial number is different and the spacing between the letters of "FINE GOLD" is tighter and the letters look thicker than a real bar . The corners look more rounded and the raised edge on the bar looks wider.
Forget about it being a real bar that's been hollowed out. It's a counterfeit and not a very good one. See for yourself
http://www.apmex.com/Resources/Catalog%20Images/Products/30945_Rev.jpg
The real giveaway is the serial number. The counterfeit bar has raised digits, which means they were cast into the bar. The genuine PAMP bars have [machine] etched numbers - very different. So everyone, go look for serial numbers that were cast into your PAMP bars. If you find any, you're probably screwed, and you should report to us here in ZH where you bought them.
It is rather strange that someone went to all the effort to duplicate the bar, then cheaped out on buying the appropriate kind of engraving machine to create the serial number. Lucky for us, but he can still update his equipment.
Personally I always buy 25 one-ounce wafers at a time, and make sure I get 25 consecutive serial numbers. But that's not foolproof protection either. The fact that I only buy "new bars" also helps --- unless APMEX is part of this criminal operation!
"The real giveaway is the serial number. The counterfeit bar has raised digits, which means they were cast into the bar. The genuine PAMP bars have [machine] etched numbers - very different. "
DING DING DING!
We have a winner in the critcal observation category!!!
DING DING DING!!
We're all screwed, do you have someplace to hide?
will be interesting to see if the gold industry responds by creating a gold bar with a sophisticate gap within the bar itself to prevent drilling, as well as a laser engraved number burned on the sophisticated reeding on the edge of the bar.
You ask. I provide.
http://www.argor.com/index.php?id=67
The only problem with this technology is... others can duplicate it. To be sure, it would take even more effort to create fake bars with a fake of their technique, however, it could be done. And remember, central banks and governments just create money out of thin air (when nobody is watching), so they can afford any equipment whatsoever. Furthermore, faking this technology would give them an even more reliable scam, exactly because people think they're safer.
Frankly, density is not the only way to test a metal bar. The best way would be some technique that measures density and 2 or more other characteristics. For example, a bar with a specific density, micro-resistance, micro-capacitance, thermal conductivity, acoustic properties and perhaps a signature scatter pattern from passing some kind of radiation through. NO other material or combination of materials could pass all the tests, hence the test could not be defeated. And it might be applicable to every brand of gold bar too, which is best.
The test machine wouldn't have to be cheap, because large metal dealers could charge a tiny fee per bar for testing bars for everyone, and thereby amortize the cost of the test machine over millions of bars.
Sounds like a business proposition. I'm too busy or I might design one.
James B used to have a dishy girl called Pussy Galore; can't remember what she was specialised in.
But according to this she was good at the trapeze and very goldfingered like in Auric :
Pussy Galore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia