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UBS' George Magnus On Marxist Existential Crises And The "Convulsions Of A Political Economy"

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Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:06 | 1583400 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

They should go right ahead with this. Morons.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:32 | 1583576 trav7777
trav7777's picture

yeah, this stuff is idiotic...as if growing money will grow the economy by magic

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:06 | 1583401 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:06 | 1583405 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

The corporate fascists, led by the FED/ECB/BIS and multiinational corporations and defense contractors, versus the marxists, led by the unions and uber Progressives.  Who will win?  Or will they morph together in the great totalitarian wet dream of the NWO?

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1583445 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Two sides - one coin

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:51 | 1583620 wisefool
wisefool's picture

Agreed. I mean did anyone catch the kitchen table talk that Hillary and Panetta gave on US Foriegn policy to a bunch of defense contractors, thier lobbiest and hookers?

It had the exact tempo and tone of Harry Reid and Joe Biden firing up a bunch of GM workers, Teachers, and service industry union people.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 14:35 | 1583712 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Exactly. Marxist Totalitarianism for the masses, corporate feudalism for the players. Welcome to the NWO.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:18 | 1583867 macholatte
macholatte's picture

  

Barry Soetoro fancies himself a Marxist and his handlers from the Soros-Clinton Machine (Center for American Progress) have done an outstanding job of placing their minions in key positions throughout the government. So why ain't everything coming up roses? Oh, yea, I forgot. It's Bush's fault.

 

If it looks like horseshit and smells like horseshit then it must be a duck.

 

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Karl Marx 

and who decides, eh?

 For the bureaucrat, the world is a mere object to be manipulated by him.
Karl Marx

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 17:28 | 1584030 Mach1513
Mach1513's picture

OR:

one side, two coins

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 19:36 | 1584351 indygo55
indygo55's picture

 "eligible mortgage holders receive relief in respect of current debt obligations, for example, in exchange for future home price appreciation gains accruing to lenders. "

Isn't this just another loan, by giving relief of current debt obligations, then getting it back down the road? Did I read that right? If I read that right this is a bunch of bullshit.

 

Mon, 08/22/2011 - 05:13 | 1585223 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

The International Elite don't care what the system is, if the Proletariat wants Marxism let them have it, they don't care they stay in control no matter what

I am not sure if there is a way to get rid of those leaches, probably not

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:15 | 1583406 cpnscarlet
cpnscarlet's picture

I wake up in terror in the dark night with visions of the agitators saying "Capitalism has failed! We need Marxism today more than ever." And of course, the mob yells back "Yeah!"

Of course, we've had nothing but creeping collectivism for the last 80 yrs. Our markets are not free of some governement/centralized control of some kind. But do the crowds understand this. No. They think stuff like Social Security is part of a "free market" system. They've been brainwashed in corporate Tide and US Government bleach.

Solution: None that I can see past the obvious...complete tyranny with consent of the sheeple, or social breakdown.

UPDATE - How about a little optimism. We True Patriots (believers in the ideals of the Founding Fathers) do not just hunker down or hide, but do what they did - Pledge Our Sacred Honor....you know the rest.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:33 | 1583453 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

You mean to tell me that Social Security is not part of capitalism?  Awww, fuck, now you've gone and done it.  You just ruined my whole Sunday.  Next, you will tell me that the FDIC, SEC and CFTC aren't a part of capitalism.  Why don't you go back to ripping the wings off of butterflies?

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:58 | 1583962 The Man in Room Five
The Man in Room Five's picture

Why would you believe in the ideals of the Founding Fathers when they lead us directly here? Obviously they got something wrong. 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 20:49 | 1584537 ATM
ATM's picture

Actually they didn't.

Many knew that government over time would need to be purged to clean it up and restore what is rightfully the peoples. We just haven't had a purge in a while but we will..... we will.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 22:10 | 1584749 I did it by Occident
I did it by Occident's picture

 From what I know, the FF weren't around in 1913. 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 17:39 | 1584059 Mach1513
Mach1513's picture

Can we get real?

Ideals of the FFs?

They were a bunch of frightened local pols coming together to create a political system that each of them had back home that would protect their own narrow interests against the hoi poloi (everyone else).

It took nearly a 150 years to overcome their narrow-minded views, and now the tea-baggers want to roll back the clock so that we can again be governed by 18th century "principles" that have been themselves twisted by the "strict constructionist" justices on the Supreme Court to declare corporations people. Where does it say that in our constitution? In fact, where are corporations mentioned at all?

Such rot!

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 17:43 | 1584067 Mach1513
Mach1513's picture

...And...

That sacred honor part is in the Declaration of Independence, not the constitution. And it has no legalor governing effect. It's NOT part of the constitution but an indictment bill of particulars, a regurgitation of Locke's political philosophy, a plea for help and a propaganda document.

Mon, 08/22/2011 - 11:10 | 1585949 NorthenSoul
NorthenSoul's picture

Collectivism? You gonna throw some gris-gris voodoo scary amulets around like a hapless apprentice sorcerer? Think this is gonna work on this site?? This is zerohedge: the thinkers-to-fuckwads ratio is quite high around here

On to "collectivism: Are you aware that human beings cannot survive on their own? What has made our success as a specie is the ability to work (dare I say it?) collectivelly toward basic common goals.

Why the fuck is this simple fact presenting such a particularly huge problem to an extremist faction of the American political spectrum?

Simply because they want the powerful to rule without any constraints whatsoever. No input nor limitations coming for the "inferiors" who should (GODDAMNIT!!!) "know their place". Nothing coming from the collectivity should interfere with the goals of the big boys.

On top of being unbelievably irritating for its colossal dishonesty, this "philosophy just cannot work in real life. I know this will come as a total shock to some, but people without millions in assets are people too. They think, they work, they want the same thing as everybody else; a better future for their kids, the ability to claim a stake, however modest, in the future of their country (ya know, this much-maligned collectivity) and its wealth, reasonable financial and social safety and the capacity to raise a family without being on the edge of the financial cliff all the time.

If it is too much to ask, people will simply take it. Whether it is by peaceful means or otherwise, will depend on how smart and awake political and economic leadership is. They would do well to remember JFK about peaceful revolutions.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:17 | 1583420 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Stop spending more then you have (or earn). It's that simple, whether you are an individual or a government.

Simple.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:34 | 1583454 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

And where does one find this "saved" money?

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 14:30 | 1583702 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

"But the U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press (or, today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost."

~ Helicopter Ben

Our masters are not bound by such quaint notions as "savings". When money is free, one can earn quite a potent sum.

Mon, 08/22/2011 - 11:12 | 1585970 NorthenSoul
NorthenSoul's picture

If it was THAT simple...

Try to fathom the differences between an individual an a government and some facts will jump at you.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:23 | 1583431 omar
omar's picture

I am no economist or financier but valuing gold at $25000 and making the banks swallow there own debts through managed bankruptcies sounds good. Money should then be linked to gold

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:24 | 1583433 narnia
narnia's picture

The most powerful force known to man (the US, hopefully not soon to be the UN military) and the "supposed" rule of law have been hijacked by a series of special interests.  Decisions are made to benefit this group in which property rights, justice and liberty (and, consequently, the Constitution) are summarily ignored.  

What you end up with is a series of people fighting over the steering wheel of the Titanic without recognizing it has already hit the iceberg.

Marx fails to recognize that the instrument by which he suggests we stay clear of the iceberg (tyranny) is exactly the reason why it hit the iceberg.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 14:29 | 1583706 TuffsNotEnuff
TuffsNotEnuff's picture

Marx fails to recognize that the instrument by which he suggests we stay clear of the iceberg (tyranny) is exactly the reason why it hit the iceberg.

The UK and America have "hit the iceberg" because capitalism fell prey to criminals within their Upper Classes.

PM Cameron was a vandal, Clegg an arsonist, Gerald Kaufman an out-and-out television thief. They walked.

Back in the 1990 S&L scandal era, some 1,000+ S&L people and 2,500 bankers were prosecuted and then jailed. But not now -- even state-level prosecutions have been stymied. Someone like a George Anderson CEO can get DUI and kill a woman 5 blocks from NYSE, going up Water Street weaving at 60 mph, and end up with Vehicular Homicide reduced to a misdemeanor and serving two weeks and paying $350 fine. "A Tale of Two Cities" carriage scene, redux.

Between 1981 and 2011 some $17-trillion has been offloaded from the American Middle Class to the Top 1% by wealth holdings. The Reagan tax giveaways, Big Bubble I (1994-2000), Bush tax giveaways, and Big Bubble II (2003-2008), plus the bizarre consumer debt schemes -- all implemented with false statements and fraud. Another $16-trillion has gone out unaudited from The Fed but surely delivered into hands connected to these Top 1% wealth holders as well.

The whole country is valued at $55-trillion.

Karl Marx saw capitalism as a potentially criminal system, along with the day-to-day exploitation/slavery issues. He had few illusions related to Free Market primitive ideology.

Bad guy, eh ? Proponent of tyranny ? The first incarnation of Dr. Evil.... Whatever.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 14:37 | 1583714 Mr. Magniloquent
Mr. Magniloquent's picture

You're merging failures within civil justice framework with economic disparities. Civil justice failures are exactly that, and only that. Division of wealth at the scale you decry is/was only possible because of the mandate of fiat and centralization of credit which Marx adamantly clamoured for.

Narnia is correct in his or her deduction that Marx's own solutions for avoiding societal decay and class subjugations are precisely what have wrought them.

Mon, 08/22/2011 - 11:19 | 1586004 NorthenSoul
NorthenSoul's picture

The division of wealth at the scale we're witnessing now is only possible because there is no countervailing force to channel productivity gains toward a fairer redistribution.

I mean, why do people go to extreme lenghts to ignore the fact that productivity, profits and capital have soared to highs never seen before while salaries, wages and benefits have stagnated for decades? This situation isn't the result of "the mandate of fiat and centralization of credit", but of policies (by action and omission) edicted and implemented by a bevy of bought and paid for politicians and lobbyists.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:26 | 1583435 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Yes lets raise target inflation. Brilliant.

Year over year CPI is now running @ 7.2%. Lets raise it to say 10%. Because that is going to help right?

64% of Americans can't raise $1000 for an emergency. Prices go much higher and revolution in a well armed and hungry nation is all but assured.

Here is an idea, raise interest rates to 2%. And pledge to keep them there for 2 years. Savers, those on a fixed income know what they will get for 2 years. Perhaps when money isn't so cheap, capital investment will be incouraged over say, gambling in the stock market. Also change taxation laws to favor capital investment, as oppossed to capital gains.

In other words change the paradigm from cheap money, to money as a store of value. And give people who are savers and actual investors, in people, and productive capacity, incentives.

Of course i am a dreamer because the US Treasury cannot afford 2% interest rates. Not right now.

What an absolute circle jerk this is.

The point is, why do we keep going back to the same playbook that isn't working?

 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:42 | 1583472 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Great post, you little football yanker. 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:45 | 1583482 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

All good ideas, but unfortunately it's far too late for any of them. 25 years of non-stop easy money and massive deficits have the monetary authorities "painted into a corner". Inflation is the only way out.

Oh, and by the way they will blow one more asset bubble on the way to inflating away the unpayable debts. Guess where. 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:29 | 1583443 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Any financial argument that involves the premise that government can fix anything is from either a retard, a sellout or a retarded sellout.  Government is the fucking problem.  Is that so hard to understand?  Just look around.  And of course we have the biggest worshipper of big government now occupying the White House.  What a colossal clusterfuck. 

Mon, 08/22/2011 - 11:25 | 1586043 NorthenSoul
NorthenSoul's picture

If you wanna play extreme, here's one for you: Let's abolish the government, since it doesn't fix anything. No more military (expensive as shit) no more FBI, no more SS, medicare or Medicaid. No more EPA; Tea Party assholes will get a huge orgasm out of that one, unless they're asthmatic.

Make sure you got the means to produce your own food, weapons, water and the whole kahuna because it'll be a lethal ride.

BTW, next time you post, try to think before doing so.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1583447 GlassHammer
GlassHammer's picture

Those who keep blaming our inability to "get the real rates right" will never understand that attempting to do so is the problem. 

Economics has to be a faith based system because it requires the suspension of critical thinking. 

 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:31 | 1583449 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

I think I hate George Magnus. 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:39 | 1583464 Comrade de Chaos
Comrade de Chaos's picture

Well, Marx was right when it came to over - production. Overproduction is a phenomena when firms  overinvest an over produce in a segment of economy. THere are plenty of historical examples - Railroads (1860's, 1890's), Steel (1900's), Electronic Consumer Goods (1920's), Cars (few times), Internet, RE (number of times) However he blamed the wrong party, it is not caused by capitalism or capital but by a human physcology in general. Marx also gave the wrong remedies.

The reason market is more efficient than anything else is its ability to EVENTUALLY self correct much faster than a command system (few humans on the top) would do because of dissolved individual responsibility (it's much easier for a market participant to recognize being wrong that it is for an economic leader). In addition market represents the most likely preference within a society at a given moment, which may or may not be rational, however it becomes rational (due to self correction) in the wrong run. 

In order to understand where Marx comes from, one has to understand conditions of labor during his time. His ultimate agenda was to provoke and shoke, so some constructive social changes that would benefit all could occur and not necessary world revolution and dictatorship of labor. 

p.s. I am not the fan of Mr Marx (!!!), but he was an excellent historian (view that history has to be viewed from the point of economical forces and structure of society) and there were a few things that he did get right (business cycle, he didn't call it exactly that.) 

p.p.s. There is a good book on the subject that covers much more than Marx - history of economic genius. 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:44 | 1583481 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

i'm just delighted that everyone from sea to shining sea is utterly baffled at what to do or even what 'the problem' is. Very amusing. Lots of laughs ahead. Plenty of entertaining oratory will be ejaculated, lots of 'visionaries' will come out of the woodwork with insights that 'nobody ever had before', plenty of hard core passions about, well, passions, isms and how can we best hold on to what we've got. 

But absolutely nothing will get done until there's an utter disaster. That's certain beyond any conceivable doubt. The counter forces against change are too entrenched. Oh there'll be lots of big talk, shouting and even screaming. And we'll get lies, poppycock and balderdash that will seem believable. For a while. But nothing but catastrophe will induce the change from rot to renewal. Sorry, it's inevitable. Lotsa Luck! 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:47 | 1583487 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

And surprise, surpise! The "solution" to the debt problem will involve a massive decline in living standards for all but the super rich.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:00 | 1583511 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

You BS.

I think that about sums it up.

Vivek (ORI)

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:01 | 1583513 zippy_uk
zippy_uk's picture

Maxists - "Let fix the facts to validate the theory".

Peak economic inequality just means an "adjustment" is coming. The history book says so.

We don't need more solutions. We just need to run the system properly. Sound money, telling bankrupt banks they are bankrup. Throw people in jail for fraud, spend only what we earn and no more. You know, old fashioned stuff from a time when the world actually worked.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:10 | 1583530 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Who to beleive? Von Mises? Marx? Laffer? Friedman? Keynes? 

The world is awash in theories and explanations. 

The world is devoid of solutions.

 

Look for more of the same in the days ahead

 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 15:02 | 1583758 Cruel Aid
Cruel Aid's picture

They are all promoting their version of the correct answer within the laffer curve.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 15:22 | 1583791 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

In case you missed it, Warren Buffet dissed the Laffer curve last week. As share of tax cuts shifted up, the economy has done worse. Prior to tax cuts the economy was robust. 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:09 | 1583879 Cruel Aid
Cruel Aid's picture

Warren,Warren, Is he really smart enough to know all of the factors that go into the concept.

Nobody is. Which is why free markets are more efficient.

And no we don't have free markets in reality any more than we have Keynsian economics.

Warren is on the level of Trump wrt economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve


Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:22 | 1583558 linrom
linrom's picture

Karl Marx warned us about banksters and financial manipulators, but, we get Swiss gnome to explain to us that Marxism is about more supply side and education as solution to long term structural instability caused by global wage arbitrage, taxation of labor rather than rents, interest and capital and of course the mother-lode: income and wealth inequality - all explained by Marx as failure of Capitalism

In the eyes of guys like Rush Limbaugh, Obama is is a Marxist; there is a poster above who claims that over the past eighty years we had nothing by 'creeping collectivism'. Well, Obama is no Santa Claus and over the last the last eighty years we had creeping predation as political economy: the 'extreme wealth accumulation' is all the proof that one needs.

 

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:43 | 1583598 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Yet another fool who thinks extracting blood from stones is a matter of selecting the correct set of clamps.

Want to "fix" a bubble that has lead to insane levels of personal and private debt? You'll need shared sacrifice with those who benefited most sacrificing the most.

We need cuts:

- Phased reduction of entitlement spending with means-testing and elimination of limits on contributions

- Move eligibility for SS and Medicare to 70 years old

- Reduce MIC spending drastically, there is no less efficient use of resources beyond propping up corporate interests overseas and the petro industry (bring our troops home)

- Eliminate all corporate subsidies...ethanol, petroleum, etc...or at least make entities larger than X ineligible to receive them (this includes Israel and the other minor leeches)

We need revenues:

- Make cap gains, corporate taxes, and hedge fund compensation just like any other income and taxable as such

- Eliminate corporate loopholes and refuse to give tax holidays for repatriated cash brought in by selling American workers downriver

- Up rates on >$1M/yr earners to a max of 50% for the top 0.01% (you want to make big bucks on our backs? pay the fuck up or get the fuck out!)

- Tariffs on imports to discourage moving jobs overseas where labor laws need not apply

- Restore the estate tax above $1M dollars

- Lower the cap on mortgage interest deduction to $200k

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-grap...

$918B surplus by 2015, $2.45T surplus by 2030

National debt paid off in a generation.

Mon, 08/22/2011 - 07:24 | 1585322 Are you kidding
Are you kidding's picture

And what does that solve when the campain contributions and lobbyists are still there getting what they want?

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:49 | 1583616 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

"Who is Marx, Daddy?"

I have to stop my grandchildren from reading ZH. They are gettign too, too smart and asking too many otugh questions. Before you know it, they will want an Audit of the Fed for a Christmas present!

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:54 | 1583627 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture


Let's not overshadow Marxism without adding the Leninist strategy in USA planned demise. Wake up J6P. Our president was put in place because he is Afro-American/Muslim. Any decent is considered racist. As the country spirals into the abyss, DHS considers your noncompliance as a threat to the world government movement agenda.

Achieving the Leninist Strategy

It amazes me how the NGO's, UN or any other taxpayer funded organization never reports any real news. 

Not for work/Graphic

Five people suspected of witchcraft burnt alive in Kenya - Where have we heard the word witchcraft before? Some folks are panicking over losing control of the monetary illusion. LOL

Always use good judgment in reading the States Newz Headlines.

Who, when, where, and why. Once you harness these skills, you'll become advanced in reading the Propaganda Newz.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 14:27 | 1583703 snowball777
snowball777's picture

How do you expect to meaningfully engage in dissent, if you can't even spell it?

 

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!