This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

US vs Germany: A Comparison In Political Regimes

Tyler Durden's picture




 

While the trope of US "short-termism" has been significantly discussed in recent months, in an attempt to explain why the capital markets no longer align with the 7-11 year duration of the business cycle, but with the duration of the elected term of the US president or of various congressional and senatorial critters, and in many cases, with the lock up period at various prominent hedge funds (nowadays as short as 1 month), little has been said about the comparison between the "political imperatives" that define Europe's economic growth dynamo: Germany. And as last week demonstrated, when it comes to the US attempting to impose its "imperatives" on Europe (read Germany) in the form of the one and only "solution" available to the US (namely print, print, print) any such venture ends in mockery, ridicule and general disparagement of TurboTax experts. So just what is it about Europe that makes the two regimes so incompatible? Well, for one thing the fact that unlike the US, Germany has already suffered through a period of hyperinflation, seen the disastrous impact of central planning in the form of a totalitarian regime and it subsequent dissolution with the fall of the Berlin Wall, and experienced an economic "miracle" or the period between 1948 and 1955, in which Germany denied central planning and unleashed a golden age predicated by free and fair capital markets, and the abolition of all rules and regulations established by the occupying powers. But that is not all: aside from the purely empirical perspective that Americans so acutely lack, Germany also has a vastly different political system which explains why the prerogatives behind the German ruling party are so vastly different than those for the US, and why Europe will almost certainly never embark upon a path comparable to that of the US. The Privateer's Bill Buckler does the perfect comparison of the "political imperatives" that shape, define and most importantly, distinguish the US from Germany, and which we believe should receive far greater attention in the mainstream media than they currently do.

From Bill Buckler's Privateer:

The most telling comparison between the “management” of the debt crises in Europe AND the US is the comparison between the political systems of both nations. In the US, a president is guaranteed four years in power unless he personally murders every citizen of a small town or gets caught burgling the political headquarters of his opponents. Only two US presidents have ever been impeached - one of whom was Bill Clinton. Both were acquitted and both served their full terms. Nixon resigned before he could be impeached but his presidency passed over to his second in command - Gerald Ford. Lower House members serve two years unless impeached and Senate members serve six years. On top of that, “coalition” governments are all but unknown in US history.

 

In Germany, the government in power is almost always a coalition. There are no set election dates. A sitting government can be overthrown at any time by a non-confidence vote which always leads to an election. Chancellor Merkel owes her power to a three-party coalition. Her party, the Christian Democratic Union, has lost every by-election since the start of the European sovereign debt crisis at the end of 2009. Her “junior partners” in the governing coalition are dead set against any more German taxpayer money going to subsidise the spending habits of peripheral European nations. She has been “dragging’ her feet at every stage in the bailout process because she knows that neither the German people nor her coalition partners nor the opposition parties are in favour of it.

 

The spectacle of US politicians and financial and political establishments everywhere exhorting Ms Merkel to “show leadership” in bailing out the European profligates is a hollow farce. Their version of “leadership” is a political potentate who totally ignores the expressed wishes of his or her electorate. By the nature of the German political system, Ms Merkel cannot do that and expect to hold her job. US politicians still think they can afford to fob their people off with sham attempts to spend within their means. European politicians can be toppled at any time their opposition can push through a nonconfidence vote. If Ms Merkel buckles, and she may, she will not last long at the helm of Germany.

Which is why, for better or worse, a functioning pseudo democracy (unlike the US kleptofascist despotism), may ultimately be the last hope for a grand reset before it is far too late and the shooting, not to mention bombing, breaks out.

And for another terrific quote from the most recent edition of The Privateer, see here. And, yes, all used with express prior permission.

 

 

- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Sun, 09/18/2011 - 19:44 | 1683167 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

and both still suffer from 'zero stroke',

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 19:54 | 1683180 breezer1
breezer1's picture

the captain pretty much sums it up...

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 23:17 | 1683609 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

dont get wrong, germany was beautiful. it is very socialized, something on that level i dont think would work here, too much resistance.

X.capt, i resigned.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 19:57 | 1683189 spiral_eyes
Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:01 | 1683197 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Or, if you go to the original source (because the Daily Bail apparently won't): The Cost Of Obama's Stimulus Plan: $312,500 Per Job (Vote) Created Or Saved (And Guess Who Is Paying It)

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:41 | 1683298 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Compare a family making $250,000 per year in New York City to a family making $250,000 in Duluth, MN or Lincoln, NE.  There is quite a bit of difference.  But for the class-baiting, race-baiting, special interest owned, commander in chief such details are merely inconvenient.  Then again with all that the big city financial and political machines have siphoned off of this country they probably should be made to pay.  Just think how much the bigshots in places like D.C., NYC and Chicago have benefitted from the money printing since 2009.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:44 | 1683306 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

Touché Tyler. I corrected my post — you were indeed the original source.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:32 | 1683407 duo
duo's picture

wasn't every GM job saved over $1M?  $300K is a bargain.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:09 | 1683486 Joseph Jones
Joseph Jones's picture

Was it really that costly? 

I can just imagine how the bondholders who got screwed out of every penny feel about the auto bailouts.  Many Americans purchased auto industry bonds to save their fellow Americans' jobs.  Then kaboom, Obunghole steals all their money to pay for democratic votes.  "Scum" doesn't do this butt hole justice. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:24 | 1683518 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

either bond holders of insolvent firms get hair cut or they don't.  what the gm bond holders got was fair enough (other characteristics of the deal perhaps not so much).  what isn't fair at all is the treatment the bond holders of the too big to fail banks and shadow bank, etc. got.  they should get the same treatment as the gm ones.  charity is a bad primary motive for financial investment, in most cases.  

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:24 | 1683520 rocker
rocker's picture

That was the difference, bond holders of financial bailouts always get priority from the FED.  They are the leaders of the Bankster Cartel.

But let average Americans become a bond holder trying to save a corporation and the FED says, "Fuck You".

What Americans need to do is tell the FED, "Fuck You" and abolish the FED. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:20 | 1683367 duo
duo's picture

I worked for a German GmBH for a while.  It was interesting.  The priorities were 1) providing jobs, 2) providing exports for Germany, and 3) provide some return for the shareholders at some point.  The president/CEO made twice what the head engineer made (but got a nicer car lease).  No million-dollar salaries for the executive class. In fact, the board (which of course had an elected union member on it) decided every year to put the profits back in to plant and equipment rather than pay taxes on profits.

Meanwhile, the company I left continued to spend 2 BILLION dollars a year buying back their own stock to give to their executive class, and hadn't built a factory in the US in 20 years (except for the empty building state gave them $300 million to put up).

The Germans will continue to eat our lunch even if their currency doubles, because they don't have a FIRE parasitic class sucking 40% of the wealth.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:45 | 1683436 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

Amen.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:05 | 1683957 moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

But our FIRE class says all our problems are due to the fact wages are too high, unions are too strong, and regulations are too high. And yet Germany exports like China even tho Germany has high wages, unions galore, strong social safety net, high taxes, and strong environmental and worker regulations.

FIRE sector tellS US working poor and decling middle class to take it, and lower our wages even more, that we should be more third-world-like, to be competitive on world stage; while Germeny tells us there is another way.

Who gets talked about in our media, Germany's success or China's?

Everyone time I bring up the example of Germany to acquaintances they know nothing of their success of their businesses, alongside the success of their working class, alongside the success of their middle class, but they know of Chinese. People have no idea how Germany compares to China in exports.

If something works well for all of these: the success of businesses, the success of the general economy and working folks; why not study and copy it, instead we ignore it. Because, of course, if we paid attention, Wall Street parasites would make less money and have to do real work, build something real for a change.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 17:15 | 1690152 Rynak
Rynak's picture

I think you're over-glorifying germany a bit here. Yes, germany also employed "other means" to become an export-addicted nation (you know, those which now result in the EU-crisis).... still, when the EU was formed, bankers and megacorps immediatelly initiated reforms in germany, which strongly reduced the social safety net, and STRONGLY inflated wages.... the resulting wages may perhaps not be as low as in china, but they are much lower than they were before the creation of the EU (and with "much lower" i do not just mean 10%.... more like .... 50%... yes, you did read that right).

So, even though regarding exports, germany has other things going for it besides of wage-dumping and social-safety net haircutting, it did do exactly those things you assume it doesn't need. Difference is just is, that because of the structure of the EU, it was "successful" with it (successful as in: "it worked on credit for almost 10 years").

What "outsiders" may not understand, is just HOW RICH germany was 15 years ago. The livestandard wasn't just "okay"... it was way beyond what americans may be used to... and via the EU, the german POPULATION went from that state of things, to "a bit better than the US", in a matter of just 6 YEARS! If that happened in the US, you'd immediatelly have civil wars - yet, thanks to the strong "comformist" mentality of the german population, it just resulted in mass-demonstrations, but not outright revolts...... but, that state of the population, did depend on them assuming that there is any point at all to the price they're paying. This justification right now is voided......

 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 19:58 | 1683193 antaresteleko
antaresteleko's picture

Great that you mention it on this post. Germans are not willing to play the bankers' game, and their democracy will let  them fight hard against the stablished system.

We'll see.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:34 | 1683279 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Merkel is about to pass a law in Germany declaring Oktoberfest all year round.

The sheeple will cheer and toast, and will prostitute their vote to her as long as their tankards are full with pig's piss.

Expecting Epsilon-minus Semi-Morons to know what democracy is!  You sure are naive.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:43 | 1683302 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

I would love to see a bumper sticker on some VWs in Germany that read, "Our chancellor can beat the crap out of your president".  I bet her johnson is bigger, too.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:48 | 1683311 Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

Not as big as Hillary's, who in hindsight probably should have been president.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:50 | 1683316 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

The words "Hillary" and "hindsight" probably shouldn't be used in the same sentence.  If I was staring at her hind I think I would be praying that I didn't have any sight. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:08 | 1683352 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

your killin' me, west. LOL

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:29 | 1683530 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

but obama has a really nice ass and he's still a bad president.  i'm not sure about dr. paul's but it may not be relevant.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:54 | 1683577 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

UH.....

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:49 | 1684037 falak pema
falak pema's picture

You would be in a bind; a hind to make a hippo weep from envy, a blind date to turn a cuban cigar dream into a foggy bottom nightmare. A boner that was going nowhere in dark despair. You'd need a repair job worse than Thelma and Louise's car after the jump off the ledge.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 00:43 | 1683701 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

She should have divorced shitface after the Senate acquitted him.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 05:01 | 1683832 dolly madison
dolly madison's picture

It would have been no better with Hillary than Obama because they would both be controlled by the same people.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:42 | 1683561 He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

Ahmeexnal, your germanophobic views do not go unoticed here and are of no value to readers. Shove it up yours!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 00:26 | 1683683 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Fascist moron. Learn to comprehend the message of what you read.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:28 | 1684416 He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

Your idionsyncratic confusions are quite telling. How about getting a dictionary?

Start with the word "fascist" then proceed to "Leninism", you'll get there, eventually...

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 23:37 | 1683631 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

Ahmeexnal,

It doesn't sound like you have spent much time in Germany.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 00:19 | 1683678 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Sheeple are sheeple wherever you go. Be it in Germany, or anywhere else. They won't revolt as long as they have their bread & circus, oktoberfest, nascar, soma-holiday....you name it.

And when the sheeple finally see their "benefits" taken, they will blame someone else. Like they have done so many times before.

It doesn't sound like you have spent much time in reality.

Time to get off your soma and face the facts.

 

 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 04:24 | 1683822 antaresteleko
antaresteleko's picture

Ahmeexnal,

you clearly have not lived in Germany. The world is full of sheeple and I very well may be naïve. True. But spending a couple of weeks in Germany (with germans, not as a tourist which is merely interested in topics and taking photographs) will likely broarden your understanding of things.

Societies change after losing 2 world wars, Nazional-Sozialismus, hyper-inflation periods and the holocaust.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 06:20 | 1683861 Rynak
Rynak's picture

And when the sheeple finally see their "benefits" taken, they will blame someone else. Like they have done so many times before.

Actually, when that happened in germany (it has already happened - what they want to do to greece, they already did to themselves), the party in power, which ironically called itself socialistic, instantly lost a record amount of votes in its entire party history: Around 40% of their prev voter share. This by the way IS why merkel is in power now - because the second major party commited political suicide.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:33 | 1684445 He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

Ahmeexnal, your IQ is 47 or is it 48? It can't be 49!

Ad hominem here... sorry all...

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 06:12 | 1683856 Rynak
Rynak's picture

You know, even though that would be a bad idea, it would be more efficient than QE. I proposed this myself about a month ago "It would be better if all those trillions were thrown out of the window, by throwing a party in every major city of the country, each day of the year. Would it fix anything? No, but at least it wouldn't escalate the causes even more, which is what QE and Co. does"

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:00 | 1683195 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Germans remember wheelbarrows. Americans play facebook.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:18 | 1683243 Prairie Fire
Prairie Fire's picture

Fantastic comment. Almost poetry.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 23:02 | 1683580 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

yep,they needed wheelbarrels to carry currency to the bakery for bread, circa 1923.

something america just may find out about.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:37 | 1683287 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

Not all Americans are dumbasses. I have a wheelbarrow, and I used one growing up. I'm not even that old. It's more so that people are afraid to talk about things openly because there is a stigma attached to the truth.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:55 | 1683329 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Yeah, A "stigma". Like politics are broke. Like your shit isn't going to work. Like you fucking central planning asshats should eat your fucking diploma (sic) intended. And stop trying to rule the world.

You ain't that fucking smart dipstick.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 00:42 | 1683689 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

You've got it all wrong dude. I don't prefer the stigma, that's just how I get treated when I talk about things to people. I'm holding precious metals, AR's, and stockpiled to the brim. I'm a born and raised US citizen, but I'm also a minority in this regard. You should understand the difference between a government and a country. If it were up to me about half of the agencies would be gone tomorrow. Our debt is unsustainable. It's a class war that we're losing, and you're mistaken if you think I'm an elitist pig. In case you hadn't noticed, the Swiss, Japanese, and British are all bloating their monetary supply. If you think this is all the fault of the US then you need to brush up on your history. The Rothschild banking dynasty controlling the TBTF banks, the Federal Reserve, and even the Hong Kong Mercantile Exchange are the root of the problem (notwithstanding human ignorance to them). Nationalism is a dated mentality, we need real patriots around the world to work together and stop bickering amongst ourselves about petty differences if we're going to stand a chance.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 05:04 | 1683833 dolly madison
dolly madison's picture

The stigma is that they don't want their bubble burst.  They just want to hear that everything will be okay.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:45 | 1683305 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

I don't think you play Facebook.  You play Farmville and Mafia Wars.  Don't bother checking me out on Facebook.  My account is dead.  I got sick of the coffee updates and the estrogen laden posts that seemed to flow like The Hudson on a windy day.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:01 | 1683198 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

100 year Treasury Bonds will sure excite this fragile market.

/Sarc

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:03 | 1683202 FunkyMonkeyBoy
FunkyMonkeyBoy's picture

Germany = industrious, intelligent populous and as close to a democracy you can get on this god forsaken planet.

U.S.A. = Sloth, dumb populous and a fascist dictatorship.

Am i close?

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:07 | 1683214 Bill D. Cat
Bill D. Cat's picture

"Germany = industrious, intelligent populous and as close to a democracy you can get on this god forsaken planet."

 

Keeping them down always ends well though ............ at least we have that going for us .

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:19 | 1683244 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Being dumb and slothful is a full time job for some people but the government will pay pretty well for those skills and can't get enough so all are welcome to move here.

Examples: Obama's illegal alien Aunt and Uncle who have been in country for decades illegally, getting free benefits.

 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:48 | 1683312 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Being stupid and slothful and fertile is even more sought after by the government.  The pay and benefits are excellent. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:19 | 1683245 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Well, they either experienced hell, or remember the stories their parents and grandparents told.  Additionally, the CIS and Central European countries may not have the greatest economies per se, but the people are certainly much less gullible than Americans, because of their experiences, no doubt.   

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:20 | 1683247 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

FunkyMonkeyBoy, can you breakdown his last address message and share your thoughts. Thank You.

January 30th, 1945

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_AgfHDKzGM&feature=related

 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:45 | 1683307 bullwinkle
bullwinkle's picture

Yeah but can they build a Cadillac Escalade?  And then paint it pearl white with enough chrome to blind you??

I think not and I rest my case.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:50 | 1683447 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Actually, Germans have more paid vacation time (triple), less than 40-hour workweek, paid maternity and paternity leave, and also get the benefit of a full social package covering health, education and retirement. There's a self-serving fallacy about everyone else being "hard working" that has long existed in this country. At one time Russians were considered tough and hard working. Soon it will be Chinese. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:59 | 1683466 richard in norway
richard in norway's picture

you forgot about their fabulas sence of houmor

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:06 | 1683204 Alvaro de Esteban
Alvaro de Esteban's picture

Well. the article misses a point : every election missed by Merkel´s party since 2009 have been won by Timmy´s & Barack loved friends, SPD socialist & Greens so germans tell one thing in the oppinion polls (against printing & rescues)and the opposite in regional elections

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 06:33 | 1683866 Rynak
Rynak's picture

No, there not really is a contradiction. Germans are pissed.... the problem is just that BOTH major parties are shit (and as in the US, pretty much the same).... and they're too accustomed to this bipolarity, to consider that none of both will save them.... well, thats not entirely correct - they are beginning to notice it right now (both major parties now have historically low voter shares.... first the SPD commited suicide by creating a social wasteland, and now the CDU commits suicide by supporting the bailouts)... but them being sheep, this process of losing trust in the established major parties is slow - but it is happening right now.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:05 | 1683206 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

german officials blow bankers during business hours only, usa officals do it 24/7. that is the only difference I can see.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:05 | 1683209 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Glad my kids are both learning German. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:09 | 1683220 FunkyMonkeyBoy
Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:11 | 1683223 gwar5
gwar5's picture

The functional Parliamentary system explains the Euro-elitist's urgent need to create the dysfunctional EU. It's full of deaf and unresponsive supranational kleptofascist despots wearing Italian shoes and nursing an illegitimate neo-Soviet style baby out of Belgium.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 06:41 | 1683870 Rynak
Rynak's picture

I further up wrote, that by now both major parties commited suicide. What i didn't write were some interesting details about who is pulling the strings behind the scenes:

- As you may know, the EMU mainly was pushed by bankers. And now Merkels party is commiting suicide by trying to hold it together.

- As you may not know, merely 1-2 years after the introduction, germany's social system was strongly reformed (read: decimated with an axe). The people who designed the reforms mainly were the same bankers, and representatives of export-heavy megacorps. The "social-democratic" party pushed them through, and in doing so, also commited suicide.

So, what in the big picture happened, is that the kleptofascists created the EMU, and then reformed germany to turn it into a country attractive to export from (while ruining purchasing power and the domestic market, thus making the "dealer" dependent on junkies). And now both major parties who supported this grand scheme, get decimated.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:12 | 1683224 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

OT sorry

Ron Paul Moneybomb for the Constitution just went $$1,004,967.38!!!!!

A nice message to the oathbreakers in office and the Banksters.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:52 | 1683320 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Obama's Money Bomb Against the Constitution is nearing the $1 billion mark.  Being a sellout puppet makes fundraising a lot easier. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:16 | 1683231 malek
malek's picture

Bill Buckler has this almost completely wrong:

In Germany, the government in power is almost always a coalition. There are no set election dates. A sitting government can be overthrown at any time by a non-confidence vote which always leads to an election.

There are (federal) elections every 4 years. The ruling government has a small window for choosing the exact date, I believe its +-3 months.

A sitting government can be overthrown anytime by a majority, but this new majority has to propose a new chancellor at the same time ("Konstruktives Misstrauensvotum" ~constructive no-confidence vote), and that new chancellor then selects his/her new ministers and so on.
Therefore elections are not necessary at an overthrow, however a majority in the Bundestag (~House) can (i.e. has the right to) vote to hold earlier elections, at their discretion.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:53 | 1683453 pain_and_soros
pain_and_soros's picture

I've also read where opposition parties & the CDU's coalition partner, the FDP, support the EURO & bailing out the PIGS, tho I can't find a link to the article(s).

It is clear that Germany politicians agreed to the EURO in the first place despite most of the population being opposed to giving up the DMark - so I doubt the political elite will suddenly have a change of heart this far into the process, nor will they kick Greece or anyone elese out - the talk is simply political posturing for domestic voter consumption to suggest that they are driving a hard bargain on behalf of German taxpayers.

I do believe that the German politicians will ultimately bail out the PIGS and sell it to their populace as a necessary sacrifice to keep Europe whole and suggest the alternative would be even more costly, with reference to European history of the first half of the last century.

That sell would be made easier if they come up with a model where PIGS will provide acceptable collateral (i.e. gold) to access funds, that would provide plenty of incentive to those countries to get their financial houses in order, enforce fiscal self-discipline and ensure repayment of all paper debts or they relinquish their gold if they get into financial trouble again.

Of course, that would require revaluation of gold -

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 23:03 | 1683590 malek
malek's picture

The point, and more and more Germans seem to be waking up on that, is that the PIIGS don't need a bailout, but they need ongoing bailouts.

Talk over collateral is a farce, as it would mean in a later bankruptcy such a debtor country would need to be stripped of all assets - and as some more sane correspondents remarked that would be like a Versaille treaty or Morgenthau plan without the previous shooting war, but with the same resentful feelings in those defeated populations.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 15:46 | 1689874 pain_and_soros
pain_and_soros's picture

A major reason why the PIGS have "mismanaged" their finances to date has been their (rightful so far) belief that they would be bailed out by more wealthy neighbours, should they get themselves in trouble.

The only way to change that expectation & behaviour is to have them put up meaningful collateral that gives them sufficient incentive to not "mismanage" their financial affairs again.

If they believe that they will never be able to properly manage their financial affairs & require ongoing bailouts as you suggest, then they should simply leave the Euro, keep their gold, & re-issue the drachma or lira, etc. which will be subject to ongoing devaluations & see how their populace fares.

The fact is, the PIGS will not do that since they know they'll be worse off.

If they have no self-discipline, then someone will enforce it on them one way or another.  Their choice.

 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:00 | 1683707 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Bill Buckler has this almost completely wrong:

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

And it has not this wrong?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The spectacle of US politicians and financial and political establishments everywhere exhorting Ms Merkel to “show leadership” in bailing out the European profligates is a hollow farce. Their version of “leadership” is a political potentate who totally ignores the expressed wishes of his or her electorate. By the nature of the German political system, Ms Merkel cannot do that and expect to hold her job. US politicians still think they can afford to fob their people off with sham attempts to spend within their means. European politicians can be toppled at any time their opposition can push through a nonconfidence vote. If Ms Merkel buckles, and she may, she will not last long at the helm of Germany.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

So far, Germans have only gestured on the topic. Merkel supported every bail out so far.

Once again, another stroke of US citizenism: inventing different situations to claim situations are different.

Where is the actual behaviour showing differences? No differences so far.

Germany's political philosophy is the same as the US: an institutional power whose legitimacy is renewed x years.

For the article to stand ground, it will take at least:
-first, that Merkel showed different behaviour, so far, she aggreed on every bail out package.
-second, that the substitution government if she is ever overthrown, does not keep supporting the bailout policy.

US citizens have strong difficulties with diversity. They invent differences where there is none, just for the sake of pretending differences are.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:14 | 1683232 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I just noticed Siemans is pulling out of nuclear power.

That fact that Germany has rejected nuclear so decisively speaks volumes of why a jackass like Turby gets laughed off Merkels stage.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:30 | 1684003 falak pema
falak pema's picture

will russian gas and renewables suffice..? I have a feeling germany has a major energy paradigm problem to resolve. I am not a nuclear bug, but energy maths is energy maths...how to fill the short fall...Unless they know something about arctic/siberian oil that we don't. The fight for conventional ME oil will get worse in coming decades.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:22 | 1683249 malikai
malikai's picture

Almost as good as direct democracy, comrades.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:33 | 1683251 sasebo
sasebo's picture

US's only chance is to elect Ron Paul. Otherwise expect disaster. Just too many gullible, stupid voters to change things.

Dr. Paul will get rid of Bernanke, Geithner, Clinton, Holder, et. al. & replace them with Austrian economists. Perry & Romney are carbon copies of Obama who is a carbon copy of GWB. Stupid fat cats. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:54 | 1683325 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

I like Ron Paul.  I will vote for Ron Paul.  I do not expect him to get anything constructive done.  Sad but cynical, yes I know. 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 00:00 | 1683655 paint it red ca...
paint it red call it hell's picture

the US's only chance is to embrace the Constitution on the State level making the federal government much less relevant. that is Ron Paul's genius, reinvigorating interest and respect in the Founding  Father's wisdom's and attempting to do so within the existing Republic-an party..

 

nothing can be put beyond the criminals steering this clusterfuck. if faith and hope lie only with the voice and success of a single public face, you can surely bet that person will not survive something like a hot tub heart attack. the way forward is back to the foundation, The Constitution.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:07 | 1683714 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

While I agree and support Ron Paul, I don't think much will change unless he pulls a Saddam Hussein tactic on Congress during his first State of the Union address.  With the named politicians decorating the trees and light-fixtures as the State of the Union ends and all others exit.

I also wonder how many US Marine divisions will step up for the take over and decimation of each of the FED facilities.

I then wonder how many FBI and Treasury Agents remain uncorrupted that would more than relish the opportunity to track down and apprehend all the financial super villains.

Sounds like a tall order to fill.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:20 | 1683720 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

the US's only chance is to embrace the Constitution on the State level making the federal government much less relevant. that is Ron Paul's genius, reinvigorating interest and respect in the Founding Father's wisdom's and attempting to do so within the existing Republic-an party..

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Fabled past.

If the FF believe in their own words, they would not have behaved the way they did.

Trouble for US citizens: people of power have to deal in reality. When a US person of power looks at the US past people of power, that person can only see people who disembled their way to power with a dishonesty degree that person can only dream of matching.

If indeed the FF would have believed in their words, they would not have bought land with people on it and many other things.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 11:14 | 2557972 Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

last usa presidenet that tried to do something against banksters was JFK............

 

he got terminated if you remember.... and you really expect that Ron Paul is doing something??? hahahhhaahahahah you american are really more brainwashed that i ever thought.....

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:27 | 1683262 niccolo and donkey
niccolo and donkey's picture

The Germans really, really are tired of funding the lower-tier economies in the EU.  Yes, Germany has benefitted from this project the populist backlash is spreading as these state election results in Berlin tell us:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/merkel-coalition-fears-co...

Conspiratorial types and opponents of Germany (they quite often overlap) are accusing Germany of using this crisis to ram through a closer union under its direction.  Here's an article describing a greek take on the threat to their sovereignty:

http://www.saloforum.com/index.php?threads/the-vanishing-sovereignty-of-...

 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:56 | 1683330 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

And tens of millions Americans are tired of funding the lower-tiered citizens of this country.  How is that working out for us?  Nixon called it the "silent majority".  It's not that we are silent.  It is just that the system is designed to turn the stereo up every time we make a sound. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:31 | 1683271 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

I LIVED FOR 20 LONG YEARS IN GERMANY AND ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOV GREECE WILL GO .... VERY EASY!!!
MERKEL'S TIME IS OVER SHE WON'T WINN ANOTHER REELECTION AND NO GERMANY WON'T BAILOUT NOBODY ANY LONGER!!!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:14 | 1683981 moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

It's Germans banks that need a bailout, not Greece...Greece is like a sub primer that bought a house he could never afford, once you kick him out he is back where he started, oh well,.... but the bank is then insolvent,.... hence the reason our politicians try to help "homeowners", it's really the banks they are helping. Do you really think the German banks will just say,okay, break us, wipe us out by letting Greece default?

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:33 | 1683278 Absalon
Absalon's picture

So Merkel has no more real power than Obama has.

 

The US needs to get over American exceptionalism. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:37 | 1683285 kahunabear
kahunabear's picture

I used to be a card carrying, patriotic, go USA, we're number one, red white and blue American. Now everytime my thoughts turn to the mess we've made I think one thing:

We suck.

I just hope the American dream is still salvagable.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:54 | 1683319 FunkyMonkeyBoy
FunkyMonkeyBoy's picture

Er... hate to break this to ya... take it away George...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:00 | 1683339 kahunabear
kahunabear's picture

I would love to hear Bill Hick's take on today. He is one of my favorites.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:14 | 1683361 niccolo and donkey
niccolo and donkey's picture

It's long gone.  Your country is suffering from structural issues such as demo-sclerosis.  Nothing can get done that changes the big picture...it's all pinpricks.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 20:40 | 1683296 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

I am starting to wonder when the thumb fight will begin?   All someone dull and unpopular has to do is hit print. Then an equally unpersuasive sample of human will hit print.  Then another will be cueing up to keyboard waiting for the order, then another simian scratches with it as it awaits the stimulus.

And the opposable thumbs just start having their own little war?  Openly, not privately and in alliance with each other like now.  Rogue thumbs printing, trading, starting conflicts and generally thumbing their noses at the rest of the world.

done that.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:20 | 1683323 Thepnr
Thepnr's picture

The real difference between Germany and the US is not between ordinary people but between the elite.

In difficult times the German elite will rein in their horns so as to be unnoticeable, in the US the seeking of power and wealth is all that matters and fuck the consequences.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:02 | 1683343 TK7936
TK7936's picture

Well i hope Merkel reads this.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:29 | 1683396 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Hopefully Germans rise up, overthrow that bitch and get the hell out of the EU.

And if the EU shills disagree, Germany can invade them and kill them all.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:34 | 1683411 JustACitizen
JustACitizen's picture

Now say it all together:

"Industrial Policy"

Do you think that all of those Germans would go gracefully into the goodnight of globalization?

They are an exporting economy and their industrialists are safe in their home markets.

They also seem to have an attention span a tad longer than the average gnat - wish we did.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:45 | 1683423 jhm
jhm's picture

...

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 21:56 | 1683461 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Interesting that even erudite Tyler thinks Germany (or any place else for that matter) would have an economy without the ongoing largess of the US money printing press. Keep in mind that the bulk of Germany's profitable exports are ultra-high end (which the populace will no longer be able to afford on short order). I'm not detracting from Germany's know-how in this niche: they make good products and above all market them well. However, they're in the same boat as the other export-dependent countries without a reserve currency: they need deep export pockets. It's a country almost devoid of natural resources that is fully dependent on Russian nat gas for heat. And others for oil. 

If you want a good illustration of what a Teutonic country's economy looks like without buoyant exports, look at Denmark: more people are unemployed and on the dole than work. 

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:28 | 1683527 TK7936
TK7936's picture

You think a printing press is irreplacebal ?

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:30 | 1683534 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Never. In the long run. But that can take decades of 'adjusting', which could include anything but not limited to world war and global economic depression. Sadly, the global economy has been set up that way and it's part of the core mechanics and the strucutre. It's also what makes Pax Americana

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 22:55 | 1683578 carlsbadip
carlsbadip's picture

I can always tell those "educated" in America’s finest Universities; they use terms like, "US kleptofascist despotism."  The West in its Universities without hesitation adopted the definition of the Scientific Marxists in the Soviet Union regarding fascism as late stage capitalism, despite the facts that Fascism evolved from Marxist Ideology and Philosophy.  The only difference between the Fascism of Mussolini and the Communism of Lenin and Stalin were what they called themselves. 

Stalin was a great admirer of Mussolini and Stalin continued the “Socialism in One Country” of Lenin that was really an incorporation of what Mussolini was attempting in Italy.  Mussolini and his followers was ardent Marxist that rejected the anti-nationalism creed of international socialism by strongly supporting Italy in WWI.  Mussolini and Stalin both followed paths to massive forced industrialization.  They were centrally planned states where the ideology overruled all other consideration, including economics.  Much like the Puritanism of the modern environmental movement.  The statism and its control were rejections of democracy in any form and the need to see only the group and acting for the greater good of the group.  Marx rejected individualism and saw man, as solely an economic being that was part of a group.  Mussolini rejected individualism and the sole economic view of Marx by seeing man, as a social animal that could only exist in a group with the betterment of the group or society being all that mattered.

The Nazis added a racial component to their extreme Nationalism.  Germany had evolved from the most advanced society in Europe prior to World War I to a completely broken country by the early 1930s.  Woodrow Wilson, America’s first despotic statist joined the war for democracy at a time where many more Germans could vote in their parliamentary elections than the people in all of Great Britain and most of the people in the South and the balance of the rural non-South US.  The advanced society in German prior to WWI was a place where eugenics had strong adherents, maybe not as strong as in the place where it started, the US, but strong nevertheless.  The eugenics movement provided the Nazis with the academic imprimatur for their Aryan policies.

The US was on a very slow road to the Europeanization, until the printing of money and spending since September 15, 2008, when everything went off the tracks. The US became a fully functioning member of the statist regimes that Merkel and her cronies in the EU run.  The short-term coalition government methodology praised here is a bit irrational because its sole focus is the short term.  Lick the finger and go with the wind type of Government has gotten America and Europe to the financial mess it each has created.  Central planning does not work whether it is the myth of the Maestro Greenspan, Burns, Bernanke, Atlee, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, Mao and the list can go on forever.

The central theme is statism or freedom.  The actions of Mellon from 1921 to 1923 or the actions of Hoover/FDR from 1929 through 1945 and the actions of Bush/Obama from 2008 through to the present illustrate two distinct paths.  The economic freedom during Mellon’s time was not optimum but far better since 1929.  The data indicates that the “Keynesian/Friedman” model from 1933 to the present has not really worked because of its inherent incompatibility.  While the Keynesian Model of the FDR years failed, a pure Friedman monetarist policy has yet to truly be attempted in the US.  Unfortunately, the pseudo-Friedmanism of Greenspan and Bernanke combined with the failed Keynesian policies of Bush and Obama has severely harmed Friedman's Monetarist philosophy – throwing money out of helicopters is unfortunately seen as its central tenet.  

The Business Cycle as detailed under the Austrian School’s philosophy seems to understand that statism will not solve problems, but compounds them.  We have chosen to ignore reality when the political class attacks Governor Perry for calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme and with the most withering criticism coming from “free market” Romneyites and other statists Republicans.  Our media and political class have chosen to ignore Michael Bloomberg’s characterization of Social Security and Medicare as Ponzi schemes a number of months ago.  Unfortunately, we end where we started with the “educated” from America’s finest Universities believing the myths of central planning with our brilliant selves being the planners and the myths of differences among the statists regimes, and as always reverting to the pejorative when all else fails.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:07 | 1683713 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

I can always tell those "educated" in America’s finest Universities; they use terms like, "US kleptofascist despotism." The West in its Universities without hesitation adopted the definition of the Scientific Marxists in the Soviet Union regarding fascism as late stage capitalism, despite the facts that Fascism evolved from Marxist Ideology and Philosophy. The only difference between the Fascism of Mussolini and the Communism of Lenin and Stalin were what they called themselves.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Dont want to break your US cheap propaganda bubble but all you state is that the fascists defined themselves what fascism is.

And by the way, marxism did evolve from US citizenism.

The US is not the solution, the US is the problem.

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 23:17 | 1683608 Uncle Keith
Uncle Keith's picture

You myopic bitches are soooo utterly predictable...

 

You live in a Socialist Plutocracy. This de-evolution was brought about by the Ultra-Wealthy and funded by everyone but them. They bought a political party and bought off the other. The Citizens United ruling assures a publicly subsidised perpetuation of the Status Quo until said decision is Congressionally remedied. Until then, you may expect more job "outsourcing'; more "offshored monies being heald to avoid paying taxes"; more misery; less opportunity; less access to capital.

 

That is the current reality. You may carp all you'd like - I'm sure it's cathartic. 

 

German companies pay their CEO's about ten times what line empoloyees make. Corporate officers sit on the board of one company - not six, eight, or, ten. They have profit sharing. They have constitutionally guaranteed vacation; sick time; family leave; pension plans. They have fewer Far Too Wealthy Citizens because they relealised that keeping an Aristocratic Class in place is far more expensive - and, foolish - than making sure no one lives in abject poverty with no hope of living a decent life. 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:12 | 1683715 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

One funny part with US citizenism that it shows people obsessed with turning the tables so that they do not self indicted.

Capping wealth is not supposed to be capitalism. One should get as rich as one can. Now that with their accumulated wealth, rich people can bribe the government is just an expected consequence and has to be accepted thereafter.

Etc...

So who is living in a socialist plutocracy? The US? Germany?

Sun, 09/18/2011 - 23:31 | 1683624 MountainLotus
MountainLotus's picture

For Demorcracy to be a good system, it also depends on the quality of its citizens.  Look at Thailand, which also has “coalition” governments as Germany, but Thai governments are full with corruption and poorly manage its country.

What keep Thai government in their power now is because its populist policies eventhough those policies can bankrupt Thailand like Greece in the long run.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:05 | 1683712 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Thai are not rich enough to hide their corruption.

That is the only difference.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 00:09 | 1683668 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

We have a similar tenure system for CEOs in America.  We have watched time after time as boards of directors allow the CEO to run the company into the ground over a period of many years and they will not fire the bastards.  When will Americans learn that it's the institution that's sacred, not the person in charge.  The average tenure of a CEO in Japan is two years.  They fire their leaders quite regularly.  We need to also.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:16 | 1683717 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Complete bollocks.

US citizenism values extremelly institutionality. Institutions prevails.

There is an obvious confusion where the institution lies when one tells that the company is the institution.

In the example, it is simply that the institution draws more from managing the company that way than it would by propping up constantly.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 01:17 | 1683718 Growyourownfood
Growyourownfood's picture

Hmm, and which other G7 non-european country has the exact same, highly praised political system as described above? 

Hint: the one whose banks didn't need massive government bailouts, and whose real estate market never collapsed, and that often catches sarcastic criticism from ZH.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 02:06 | 1683738 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

The spectacle of US politicians and financial and political establishments everywhere exhorting Ms Merkel to “show leadership” in bailing out the European profligates is a hollow farce. Their version of “leadership” is a political potentate who totally ignores the expressed wishes of his or her electorate.

the spectacle of tyler durden using bill buckler (with permission) to pretend the US is "responsible" for angela fuking merkel being damned if she do & damned if she don't is even more farcical, imo

yes, the reset button does seem to be controlled by germany, but isn't the "problem" in the EU that they haven't had a clear direction?  germany doesn't = the EU!   if they want to bail out the profligates, show some leadership and bail them out!  if they don't want to bail out the profligates, why tf do they keep bailing them out?   talk about mixed messages!  this is the US's fault?  mebbe, but just mebbe it isn't, in which case the "idea" or "suggestion" that the US is to "blame" for the EU's (in)direction & (in)decisions is, unhhh,...bullshit!

obviously, timmah & the banksters who have captured the US would like to see the can kicked there in the EU, too!  and, the numbers are in a range which would allow the economic "super CBs" to kick the fuker.  personally, i hope merkel tells everybody that the jig is upskie, but i don't blame timmah for playing his & his puppetmasters' hand.  such are the ways of the human BEing, BiCheZ!

buckler is an aussie citizen, who has lived in the US;  tyler is anon-y-mouse.  ok, but once elected, the Constitution allows for the prez & certainly the senators to focus on anything and everything without kow-towing to the "expressed wishes of the electorate".  may not get re-elected, but as a government (and yes, we've let the money talk WAY too much in the electoral process, obviously), they do hafta stand for re-election as tyler points out so condescendingly, on a regular timetable.  until then, either impeach and convict them, or accept them and try to get some reasonable legislation, or better yet, imo, none at all

everyone has spent so much time in front of the fuking cameras fixing everything that now almost nothing works on a functional basis, and we have so many "union rules"  that the lifeblood is getting sucked outa our nations and political systems by everybody!   try to find a "mature democracy" where this isn't happening, ok?

this is almost a universal condition in "mature democracies" at this point

prime ministers, as long as they have a majority or their "coalition" can be pretty "potentational" too! party politics is party politics;  the "nationality" matters, but more about "style" than substance, as zH and its bloggerz have pointed re:  greece, italy, germany, france, canada, the US, japan, and so on.  each kinda "unique" but party pols are fuking party pols the world over.  and it seems they are as corrupt as their people will let them be.  not in australia, tho.  of course.  they don't have pols pulling fast ones there!   no siree, bob!  not in germany either, right?  greece is the problem.  and the US.  of course.  got it?

the EU had its beginnings in the '50's as a way to try to avoid another war by sharing the coal & iron/mineral resources of 6 nations of europa

look at their website (i've put up the link several times)!  what is the "future" of europe?  confusion?  how the fuk do they know what the ramifications of their decisions might or might not be?  they don't!!!

as in the US, kicking the can & "saving the system" can be made to seem quite the prudent course, even when it obviously hasn't  been working and never will!

but all the EU potentates are sure in front of the damned cameras all the time acting like they can "fix" things, aren't they?  

shit or go blind, BiCheZ!!!   

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 02:50 | 1683771 pcrs
pcrs's picture

"but all the EU potentates are sure in front of the damned cameras all the time acting like they can "fix" things, aren't they?"

The road to serfdom, the call for strong action and a man on a white horse. If you are lazy, here it is the script in pictures.

http://mises.org/books/TRTS/

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 03:14 | 1683781 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

why don't you re-read what i wrote again, if you're not too lazy, asswipe, and see what you mighta misunderstood, ok?

or is english not your first language?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:21 | 1683973 falak pema
falak pema's picture

 

You do have the most beautiful rat holed mouth around here. Bubonically speaking. Teutonically speaking it smells of stale borst. 

As for Europe's problems being a spin off of the US banking 2008 meltdown, it is so evident to anybody with primal knowledge of how incestuous, uncontrolled, greedy, ponzi, criminal banking cartel markets work. Merkel compounded that problem by stating that ALL resolution of 2008 fall out in Eu financial markets, potential banking and RE collapses, would have to be resolved by nation state economies and NOT by a common coordinated European approach. Its set the whole sovereign tinder box alight subsequently.

This approach denied the reality of the global financial ponzi. IF THE PROBLEM IS GLOBAL AND ITS INTERNECINE RAMIFICATIONS TOO COMPLEX TO BE HANDLED WITHIN EACH NATIONAL FRONTIER THEN THE SOLUTION HAS TO BE GLOBAL OR ITS NOT A SOLUTION BUT  BLIND MICE PLAY POURING THEIR BODY FAT ON A RAGING FIRE.

THAT'S what the Merkel 2008  dictat achieved in 2009/2010, it made the EU peripherals fend for themselves like small fishing boats in a mega sea tempest. Now the cancer has grown under mad speculative play and panicky institutional runs and all EU leaders are in total panick on board the EU Titanic, as the market iceberg has hit them head on. They won't bail out the ship or plan an organised retreat to life boats. They are therefore toast. And the US economy subsequently.  But the root cause of this capitalistic collapse stays the same and originated in the country whose name will go down in history as that which destroyed its own industry and way of life. Like the Comnenos of old. Happy hunting rat of the  land of the brave. You can still be proud. You may get a second chance in thirty years when the dust  settles...from this one.

I just hope and pray the Greeks will get something different to total annihilation and economic slavery.

 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:44 | 1684727 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

fuk you, falak penis!

we KNOW you can't think straight!

once you postulate the historic "root causes" nothing can be changed! L0L!  once again yer drama queen of history psychosis is raging, here!  aren't gonna tell us again, today, how "germany won the war", too, or does yer severe mental illness not allow that for today's game of "falak penis makes believe he is g-o-d"?

i, too, see the US fraud bubble bursting as problematic, world-wide, and write abt that and the criminal banking cartel all the time, as you would know if you could thing straight

merkel was trying to follow treaty law in '08, wasn't she?  trying to save the EU and protect germany at the same time, which has now reached the final stages of the game, which seems complex politically, but is quite simple economically:  either kick the can down the road, or stop the fuking re-fi of zombie ponzi.  yep, i think it's time to stop the ponzi, too, as do the german people, the greek people, the irish people, the american people, and so on, but the nanny "dream" of the EU may well get thrown under the bus, and merkel's heart is in the EU "making it"

there does not hafta be a catastrophic collapse right now.  just as in '08,  the damned int'l CBanksters can print their way out this.  yet, the "collapse" would be the best thing, in terms of real economics and allow the economic engines to start anew earlier than if the can keeps getting kicked thru inflationary printing, which is what is failing, along with socialist nannyism for all.  "...eventually you run out of other peoples' money..."

you can hope and pray for whatever you want, you sick fuk, it still just doesn't matter to me. but i do think it is funny how you see the root cause as the international banking cartel and then imply that it has its roots in the US, which is not true.  we were victimized by it 100 years ago and many here in the US have about had it with these pigmen, too, ya know, shithead!

if you don't mean the US, what do you mean and why the fuk don't you say what you mean if not the US?  {And the US economy subsequently.  But the root cause of this capitalistic collapse stays the same and originated in the country whose name will go down in history as that which destroyed its own industry and way of life.}

nobody else is responsible for what has happened in greece.  not the greeks?  are they only powerless victims?  like europe?  like falak penis? 

merkel is there, with one eye closed, farting.  it's about time for her to shit or go blind.  isn't it? 

if you can't understand me, don't try to correct me, toy boy. stay away from me. 

you:  Merkel compounded that problem by stating that ALL resolution of 2008 fall out in Eu financial markets, potential banking and RE collapses, would have to be resolved by nation state economies and NOT by a common coordinated European approach.

reality:  she was attempting to follow treaty law.  it isn't her fault that the EU was not designed for a common coordinated euopeon approach, but kept the "sovereign" states in charge of their own economic destinies.  don't you understand the EU has been pussy-footing around this for years, now?  when  they get to an "answer", greece doesn't perform, or the bondholders don't co-operate, or italy says one thing and does another.  is that all the US's doing, too? 

if the ww.ponzi.con collapses, it isn't gonna mean shit to slewie.  when you ain't got nothin, you got nothin to lose...i'm not here to "build enormous wealth" or hope for second chances.  i've been debt-free & haven't used any credit since 1986, and i try to lead a cogent, centered, peaceful life of my own design.  stop projecting, you viscious little sicko cunt

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 02:44 | 1683766 pcrs
pcrs's picture

I don't think Germany abolished central planning after the war, all the central planners died in the war. Those who most vigerously wanted to impose their will on others by initiating violence (central planners) died in the armies of the planning state. The ones who most avoided it and ducked their heads, had the best chance of survival and defined the poast war character. By now however it is only slightly less centrally planned again than the rest of gitmo nation.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 03:24 | 1683789 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

how long since you've been able to think straight?

all the central planners died in the war   suuuure they did!

get some help before it's too late! 

 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 05:23 | 1683840 Shit Bag
Shit Bag's picture

Both Eurozone and USA are failing because both are essentially socialist systems. High taxes, high regulations, that's what you get.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:15 | 1683986 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

I'm glad you noticed, Tyler. :P

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:30 | 1684171 outsidertrader
outsidertrader's picture
No doubt someone else has pointed it out in this very long thread, but just in case they haven't, Mr. Buckler is completely wrong to say that the German opposition is opposed to bailing out Greece. The opposition are far more likely than Merkel to sign up for fiscal transfers or eurobonds. That is in fact the irony of German politics. A vote to punish Merkel for being too "pro bailout" (ie a vote for the main opposition party) is in fact a vote for a more "pro bailout" party. Throughout most of the euro zone (with the notable exception of Finland), there is virtually no major party opposed to the European "project" and all that that entails.
Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!