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On Using World War 2 Flashbacks To Shame Germany Into Perpetual Bail Outs
Lost in the complete and utter lack of newsflow yesterday (no pun intended) were some comments from Otmar Issing, former chief economist of the ECB. Also a German. Also an advisor for Goldman Sachs. In the absence of Angela Merkel and Schauble, both of whom are still conducting privatization due diligence on Santorini, he decided to present the German view to all the recent bluster and posturing by Europe choosing beggars. What he so conveniently explained is just why "European Union" is the biggest oxymoron imaginable, and why Germany will hardly smile quietly as the rest of the continent uses history as its only leverage to shame Germany into funding the bailout of its broke neighbors. In fact, what Issing confirms, is why any hope that a Federalist union in a continent in which deep seated hatred runs deep, and will promptly overtake any of the happiness associated with the recent 30 years of fake prosperity, is doomed. Art Cashin explains.
via UBS
The Issing Remarks – While they did not have far reaching consequences, Mr. Issing's remarks reminded us all of the deep seated conflicts that underlie the issues in the Eurozone. You will recall that European leaders openly claim that the concept of the Eurozone was an attempt to restrain Germany to some degree.
With two world wars erupting in Europe in less than 100 years, they needed some way to try to bind these nations together. They chose to start with a monetary union. Now they are trying to hold it together. Here's a bit from the WSJ Blogs:
Germany’s guilt over the Second World War doesn’t oblige it to write blank checks to euro-zone countries that fail to reform their economies, said former European Central Bank executive board member Otmar Issing.
Mr. Issing served as a member of the ECB’s Executive Board from 1998 to 2006. A German, he remains an influential voice on economic and central bank matters in his home country. Since leaving his ECB post he has served as an adviser to his government on financial and economic matters.
Mr. Issing said that from a historical perspective Germany indeed is “in a special position” but 67 years after the war ended “Germany can’t be blackmailed with its past,” he said. This is especially true of aid for troubled euro zone states, “which does not solve the problems in these states.”
After the World War II, in which Nazi Germany occupied territory from the Channel Islands to near Moscow, the Federal Republic of Germany has seen peace in Europe and the world as being one of its essential tasks. This has also meant willingly giving up sovereignty to European institutions in an effort to bring European nations closer together.
Some commentators have taken this philosophy to mean that Germany should now, without protest, stand in and help struggling countries on the euro zone’s geographic periphery. The 17-nation euro zone is dealing with a sovereign-debt crisis that has seen Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Cyprus seek international funding to keep their countries or banking systems afloat. Germany has effectively been paymaster for the deals.
Talk about deep seated feelings.
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Indeed, a big annoyance of me too.
Shit, we're still paying for the Civil War in one way or another.
Yah yah yah sure.
Just to get back on topic and to the point, IT’S THE FUCKING BANKS that should bailout or take there loss, not a country or a people!!!!!
Fucking banks!
How can banks take losses when they have virtually destroyed all their shareholder equity already and probably a fair slice of depositors' money as well.
Reparations for everyone !!!!
Maybe Germany should remind Europe that the reason for WW-II was started in Versaille France where France and UK bent Germany over a table and started shoving large blunt objects up its anus for the next 20 years, circa French occupation and oppression of the Rhineland in 1919 and forced war reparations that destoryed the D.Mark in a hyperinflationary implosion as the government printed money trying to pay back "war fines" it never could otherwise.
You dirty rat. You killed my brother now I'm gonna kill you....
You won't find it in the history books, but millions of Germans died between May 1945 and 1947, mainly of starvation. Soviet soldiers went on a rape spree in east Germany right after the war, if you were a German woman in Soviet-occupied Germany between the ages of 13 and 53, odds are you probably got raped at least once, and maybe got shot afterwards for your trouble. Most German POWs held by the Soviets didn't get released until 1952, and hundreds of thousands of German POWs died in Soviet prison camps or uranium mines between 1945 and 1952.
The Germans already paid the bill for WW2.
Lets not forget FDR's intentional firebombing of civilians.
if you go back further, you'll notice that Germans were starving in 1919. Yes, this is not a typo, starving began after the end of WWI, thanks to a blockade by the winners to better extract further war reparation payments.
it does not pay to be on the wrong side of the collision between empires.
There's that whole East Germany thing too. I heard that was not so good either.
But Germany made amends with America by giving us its finest military-industurial minds via Operation Paperclip, allowing us to launch the Cold War. So that's something.
Reparations for everyone !!!!
____________________________________
Germany's debt is a story that satisfies 'American' taste for fantasy.
In reality, the debt was revised down very fast (cut in half after one year) and quickly cancelled.
The story appeals to 'Americans' because it somehow confirmed them in their infinite growth mantra (while crushed by an unrepayable debt, the Germans still managed to get out of the crisis and even rebuild a powerful war machine) and second, it also hides the fact that Germany was on the path of Nazism way before the treaty of Versailles was signed.
But, hey, an 'American' world is one world of fantasy and propaganda so...
Recently completed reparation payments to Israel are a fantasy as well, appealing to Chinese US Citizen taste for German Israeli Citizenism. Or something.
The debt refered to is pre WW2, not post WW2.
Cant US citizens do anything but use strawsmen?
It is the high time for Germany to break loose from Zionist terrorist banking mafia. Otherwise, Germany will be destroyed as a nation.
As for the USA, it must also make a decision whether to start a WWIII protecting & promoting these banking terrorists or to have American people interests at the core. In any case, regardless of how stupid American people are, early or later they will revolt. The only question is how many billions people will have to die to liberate the world from these gangsters?
YEP !! Why is so difficult to understand that all these bailouts are just intended for a few banks?? Amazing!! Sheeple haven't yet figured this out and have risen up and burned those companies to the ground.
The bailouts are intended to protect the level of consumption as generalized by US citizen middle class and therefore aim at protecting the US citizen middle class.
In US citizenism, the middle class is the king class.
"the middle class is the king class."
shiiittt...you haven't been here lately have you?
It is such way since the inception of 'Americanism'
All people living on Earth have been here long enough to know that in 'Americanism' the middle class is the King class...
YOU DIDN'T INVADE POLAND!
Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact made it happen.
You didn't build that Autobahn...
You didn't make that Mercedes Benz.
You didn't get elected president
You didn't come up with that witty comment.
I think a division of old school SS Nazi's might be what we need right now to straighten out the banksters.
SS Nazi Zombies?
Sounds like a plan!!
I suggest the reading of Engdahl. Essentially, the Brits are in constant competition with the Germans, who are indeed the best, brightest and most advanced class of people in Europe. This is not going to change. No one can legitimately compete with them due to their work ethic and intelligence, so the Brits are constantly getting others to do their dirty work for them. When one looks at history in a continuum, instead of time-specific events, the evidence and correspondin history is quite clear: the Brits are evil parasites hell bent of maintaing empire, and the City is the financial HQ of these sociopaths. Since they cannot occupy others physically, they do it financially.
As a consequence of the apartheid imposed on Celtic people in Britannia after their conquest by Anglo Saxons, the british are Germans, biologically speaking (the only dimension mattering to Germans)
Most volumes of war has been generated by German people during the last two centuries.
England always was and is a criminal nation of pirates and gangsters. Their crimes against humanity many times exceed the Nazi crimes. They are responsible for the both WWI and WWII. Their colonial crimes are just despicable.
The same goes for France. Remember that more than millions Algerians where slaughtered by their colonial masters.
The entire Western World prosperity has been built and sustained by plundering the rest of the world.
ADL
*the little foxmen is The 1Squeeeeeky Wheeel getting-the-oil that's heard scratching-the-blackboard any time anyone here speaks of "Germans"italians.irish.french.british.spanish etc&et al. because The Greatest Library In History rather quickly still allows one to fully recover from fullspectrum cultural dominance and all its disseminated dHS history texts even if only for the reading of just this:blackedout http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/articles/MacDonald-Solzhenitsyn-200-Years-Together-18.html
*that spoil the vines : 4 vas deferens our vines have tender testicles
here so easily emasked SS
Insane Bolt out-of-the-blue is the fastest way to that finish caught-in-a-battle which is either victory or extinction
Animal Defense League is all it is faster.faster as you here play possom : your decision. sit still.pp your descendents enslaved
4those even at this late date who might somehow honestly think otherwise:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/George.Armstrong/Rothschild.Money.Trust.htm
H8
N.M. Rothschild of London
Rothschild Bank of Berlin
Warburg Bank of Hamburg
Warburg Bank of Amsterdam
Lazard Brothers of Paris
Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
Israel Moses Seif Bank of Italy
Goldman Sachs/JP Morgan Chase of New York
H8 is their Animal Defense League : kill-one-anotherTM . or Kill Them
TMdiscuss. discuss amongst yaselves
http://stks.co/h93L Why should germany bailout when Greece and spain kept spending without having fund ?
Greece, Italy and Spain did not shame Germany for WWII. Somebody else did.
I wonder who .....?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il59S3HT6jI
http://youtu.be/V8lT1o0sDwI
Face it, it was all over as soon as the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...
to bad we cant solve the financial mess by hijaking a parade and throwing marbles in the street.
What they really need to flash back to is The Weimar Republic and how printing fiat currency isn't the solution.
Central planning and authoritarian statism have the most shameful legacy of all...and they know no ethnic or national bounds.
It's ironic that Germany, having recovered and actually learned lessons from the evils of both national socialism and communism, is being cast as the malefactor here for trying to distance itself from similar political structures.
That is Dialectic Philosophy at work. They have to blame someone for preventing their changes from working to get the actual changes that they want.
OT:
Ah, god thank the algos for giving me the opportunity to initiate another short position in JCP at $24.40 See you down below Bill and Whitney.
Covered at $23.40. 10 minute trade.
Wonder how long it would take Germany to start turning out some Tiger tanks and those really cool artillery pieces mounted on rail cars? Just for nostalgia's sake of course.
Those were some incredible artillery pieces...able to lob a shell the size of a Volkswagen.
Like i've said before, those damn Greeks are just too damn lazy to dig up dirt on the Italians Dutch and Finns, so only the German bailout it is.
I for one am tired of hearing about it. Germany in my view should tell the extortionists to take a flying leap.
It's funny when you consider Spain was a fascist state until 1975 and Italy was an axis power during WWII..
It's even funnier because it was Italy that actually started WWII.
Nazi Germany invaded Poland on 9/1/39. Italy remained neutral until May 1940.
When did WWII start?
Fascist Italy invaded Ethiopia 10/?/35.
Fascist Italy invaded Albania 4/7/39.
Maybe you forget about the Sudetenland. And the Anschluss. Or the re-occupation of the Rhineland...
meanwhile back in the usa snooki was seen outside in the fresh air..lol
Fresh air? In New Jersey?
A Grexit as soon as 20th of August
This is a perfectly reasonable and sensible position for the Germans to take. Perhaps -- and just perhaps -- if the nations needing bailouts were willing to make the reforms needed to make their economies viable and governments able to live within their means, the Germans would be more willing to fund the bailouts in the interests of long-term European harmony, peace, and good business. As it is, the feckless simply want the responsible Germans to pay for continued fecklessness. Unsinn! Narrheit!
Isn't the real problem the fact that the gov't debt cannot be paid off with the current economic output (tax receipts) and that the "reforms" actually exacerbate that problem by further reducing tax receipts? Isn't the basis for that problem the monetary system that uses debt and interest payments (owed to a banking cabal) that was incurred by politicians looking to further their own interests by buying votes? And that these gov't based spending programs served to send inappropriate pricing signals into the real economy which in turn caused malinvestment in entities which in no balanced economy would ever exist? And now that the sand is in the vaseline vis a vie debt loads that cannot be serviced either by increasing taxes (which takes money away from the real economy) or borrowing which increases interest burden, that those entities which are the result of malinvestment will cease to exist? Anyone have any idea how much of the real economy is made up from these types of entities? We'll be digging out from this collapse for the rest of our lives because so much of this economy would not exist without the credit expansion of the past 40 years.
I gave you one green UP and here's +10 more for your Friday finesse.
Wish that our 'public servants' and their 'constituents' could understand it in such a succinct manner...
Even though he is part of the machine (ECB, GS etc.) - he's right!
As a German I regret what happened more than 60 years ago and it is good that nobody ever forgets this shame but it is no argument to nowadays discussion as the majority of Germany nowadays wasn't even alive 60 years ago.
I see your point but does this reasoning also mean that Greek, Spanish and Italian babies born today have no responibility for previous debts accumulated?
ABSOLUTELY!
But the same's true for German babys, isn't it??
The concept of future generations being bound to repay debts incurred by the current generation is a bizarre concoction conceived between the bankstas and the State! It flies in the face of informed consent and is simply a continuation of slavery (where one individual claims another individual as his 'property').
Any adult who expects the next generation to repay the costs of his 60" waistline and facetwitting iCrap is perpetuating slavery. So there!
The problem isn't that Germany's government was evil, but that all governments are.
Oy vey! 6 trillion of G-d's Chosen died in the holocaust! We need more reparation moneys from dose anti-semitic German bastids!!!!
Oh Germany. Once a proud and mighty nation, now forever guilted into being everyone's bitch-boy.
PatientZero,
Never Forget. Never forget the 6 million. 5.5 million survivors won't let you ever forget. Remember that!
Over 60 million people were killed, so everyone was equally represented in the casualties. Except for Obamney's people... no holocaust, just whiny grave robbers looking for a sympathy fuck.
Except that some groups (Jews, Roma, homosexuals, etc) were explicitly targeted and systematically terminated. Other died as a result of battle, bombings, lack of nutrition, etc. These were not specifically targeted.
Pray tell, where did you acquire this second hand information? Not from the Germans who were there, I am sure.
The hatreds of the past, the mismanagement of the present and the uncertainty of the future are a bad mixture for finding and applying sustainable solutions. Unfortunately this mix will be with us for a long time going forward.
How's that saying go again? "If you are going to do something stupid, immoral, or unethical make damn sure no one is filming it."
But I digress, stand your ground Germany, let others degenerate to such transgressions first.
9/11
on WorldWide televivs
.
and-right-in-your-fucking-face
.
ff
"Give me money or I'll call you names". Brutal
History isn't leverage, it's just rhetoric.
Leverage is the German export economy being dependent on a Euro managed for German benefit suppressing competitiveness across the rest of Europe.
It could very well have been Germany looking to be bailed out. By borrowing money to flood their country with Greek and Spanish goods their respective places could have been reversed.
Except that Greece and Spain doesn't make much that Germans want.
On a rocky road you have sensible shoes vs. 6" stiletto heels. Mutti wears sensible shoes but the laces are untied. She can walk further but she's still going to get blisters.
Nobody is going down this road unscathed.
pure propaganda
German exports inside and outside of the eurozone (roughly half/half) have not changed by the introduction of the EUR.
The "economists" that shill this tale don't bother to explain the composition of the import/exports inside of the eurozone, or the fact that Germany's Chancellor and Social Democrat Gerhard Schroeder implemented a ten-years plan called "Agenda 2010" that liberalized the labour market - the major reason why Germany did not have to shift the bulk of it's productive assets to China and is not the "sick man of Europe" anymore - as it was called then.
this ties with the propaganda of the "exporters" pulling a fast one on the net importers.
The goal of the Rothschild cabal is to destroy the nation state; first in Europe and then the rest of the world. In the ME the true agenda is destabilization to achieve this, and the incremental advancement of the North American Union will accomplish the same on this continent.
All other explanations are just animals farts in the dog and pony show.
Wow! We are all soooooo relieved to know that you are here to enlighten us at to what is REALLY going on in the world. Thanks ever so much!
don't know about the cabal, the SOBs don't invite me at any meetings
but if you really want my two cents (€, of course): the concept of the limited liability company (a "child" of the nation state) - taken to it's near-extreme level of today - is what is really challenging the nation state.
give the MegaCorporations the right to have their own mercenaries and their own territories (has been done before, see the history of India) and the transformation from nation state to corporate state is complete.
Re. (has been done before, see the history of India)
Square Mile in London. City of London, not part of the City of London. Different laws. Different taxes. The queen has to ask permission from the Lord Mayor, before she can enter. Owned by Who?
It is no longer just the wealth they want, they have that, it's the power.
Finland, Hungary, Romania and Italy fought alongside Germany. Spain sent a division to the Russian front. There were other contigents from other nations too fighting with Hitler. Some have even called WW2 a European Civil War.
Croatia and Slovakia
Bulgaria, and don't forget the French volunteers, Flemish and Dutch, Latvian, Estonian, Volunteers, Vlassov's Russian Army,
wasn't all that shaming what started WWII anyway?
Banksters make Dr. Kevorkian look like a piker.
It's pretty impressive when you can get entire nations to commit suicide.
"Just take this credit...It will all be over soon."
Leave the Germans alone ! Haven't we learned that prosperous countries are magnets for socialist pigs ! Are we morally superior licking the boots of Obama ? The Germans are not alone .... prosperity breeds envy, contempt, lust for the unearned .... all the essential building blocks of Socialist tyranny ! Monedas 1929 Comedy Jihad Equal Opportunity Socialist Hitler Fuck Fest
Better to have WW III then to pay for lazy ClubMed until eternity.
Remember the atrocity of the Dresden massacre , bitchez.
The moral equivalent of bombing Disneyland on Father's Day ! The Brits did it .... but they were just following the German playbook ! At least they bombed Dresden during daylight hours ! Oooops .... got that backwards .... the US bombed military targets by day .... the Brits worked at night ! Mea culpa ! Hey, fellow fuckers, don't I get at least one green arrow for spanking myself .... on the butt ? Thanks, anonymous benefactor !
Those starved by the WW1 blockade
Dresden and many other non industrial cities. In most cases, beside the old men, women and children, 1000 years of history wiped away in 15 minutes.
And Hamburg, plus numerous other cities. War crimes by any measure. Unneccessary suffering, little military advantage to be gained relative to the civilian collateral damage, legitimate military targets only, etc. These principles were already well-established by 1944/45. The architects of those bombing campaigns should have been standing beside the other defendants at Nuremburg. But, alas, that's not how it goes when you are the victor.
Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were far more justifiable than the firebombings of German cities late in the war. I'm an American. The world has not forgotten these atrocities.
WWII was a battle of two Socialist titans for Europe .... Socialist Germany vs Socialist Russia ! English speaking Keynesians had to contain the conflagration ! Fascism doesn't really exist as a stand alone system .... it's just a variation on Socialism ! Socialism was all there was .... you could be killed for singing off key .... sic Trotsky pick axe murder in Mexico ?
World War II. The gift that keeps on giving.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p243_Weber.html
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/16%2C000-holocaust-victims-worldwide-to-get...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/13/gordon-duff-who-speaks-up-for-ho...
Socialism is theft that keeps on giving power to corrupt Keynesians like Barney Frank !
It's GERMANY against SPAIN !!
....Or maybe alternatively,
The TBTFs are a global syndicate.
They are joined together in common cause for concentrated wealth and unaccountable power.
The economies are integrated. No nation can ‘go it alone‘. Sanctions and penalties prevent any from trying.
The politicians are bought.
Hollande, Merkel, Cameron, Obama et al, all support economic and military globalism.
They fund and are served by an internationalized police force, Pentagon/NATO.
The “bailouts” do not go to average Greeks, French, or Germans, but to Goldman Sachs, Barclays, etc.
Nonetheless, the bailouts will be described as bailing out the Greeks, the Italians, or preventing German economic collapse.
The “bailouts” will proceed (back door when expedient).
The Greeks & French will blame the ‘greedy haughty’ “Germans” trying to “take over” Europe.
The Germans will blame the “lazy” French and Italians.
Divide and conquer. That’s the ticket.
(Hmmm… maybe “Texas” could be pitted against “California”)
And there’s always a splendid little Pentagon/NATO war to boost everyone’s acquiescent allegiance.
The bailouts are so the rebellious slaves will become contented slaves once again.
omission is none the less a lie
what you say here is all true, too true . . .
exceptions make the rule . . .
Who motherfucker
WHO
4horse.. you are one strange motherfucker?
the real story is romney gave me cancer and kicked me in the nuts.
oh , and look , someone has a dollar!!!!!
Does anyone believe that they are not again in the ratskellers discussing the final solution to the bankster problems that infect Wall Street and London's Financial sewer, er district? If they are not , shouldn't the ybe? Who can not equate the lawlessness of the banksters and their political kept whores with the human depravity of the Nazis? Of course the average German was not a Nazi, right? And the average American politicain is not crook, right? And the blood suckers in the investment banks are not predominately of a certain nearly universally (both time and place) persecuted people, right? And their never was a reason to question why the vast majority of muslims are perplexd about (and despise) our support of a people who have and continue to displace the homeland of the Palestinians? Was their any muslim hatred of America before 1947? How much money and blood have we wasted on wars against muslims? for what? Are we broke or not? And why? And these questions only scratch the surface of what needs analysis - which neither Obama nor Romney would ever dare ask much less answer.
So much ignorance in your post:
#1) Investment bankers are not "predominately" Jewish. They are predominately white, christian, ivy league graduates.
#2) Muslims generally do not give a rat's ___ about the Palestinians. They have dont little to help them, won't grant them visas, etc.
#3) There was plenty of muslim strife with the west before 1947. Ever heard of the crusades?
1. Young IB's trained like stormtroopers to ravage the markets and pension plans and savings and home values of the general population - trained by whom? Who manages and leads the large trading houses, GS, JPM, MS, etc? Please tell me the ethnic background of the big bonus guys who ransacked American home values?
2. Displaced people are a burden. Same exact thing can be said about the displaced Jews after WWII. Nobody wanted them; hell their homes, shops, and land had already been OCCUPIED by their previous christian neighbors. So have they not committed the same crime against another group. Like someone said, the displaced Jews were northern europeans who were sent to Palestine (by mostly their own volition and their neighbors joy in getting rid of them) where they have for over 5 decades done the same to an other poor bunch of people.
3. America as we know and refer to it began circa 1776. Your comment is thoughtless. Except for a few pirates in North Africa, whoever amongst Muslims hated Americans? For what?
Napoleon in his day was a bigger slut than Hitler .... and he did it on horseback mountain ! Caesar and Nero didn't use underwear ! Wasn't Europe sacked a few times by hordes from the steppes when the turnip harvest failed ? No one has a monopoly on Socialist greed for other peoples stuff !
Globalists and liberals continually decry Hitlerism to divert eyes from their love of Stalinism and the three quarters of a century of communist terrorism in Russia by the internationalist money power to seize all her human and natural resources.
As Stalin said "The best way to control dissent is to lead it."
White families are destroyed by over taxation .... black families are torn apart by Socialist largess ! Shit begets shit !
Don't blame the Germans for the universal human condition of weak mindedness once Socialist looting gets underway ! We are become them !
Don't forget Sweden's invasion of Germany by Gustav Adolphus, laid waste to Germany all the way to Lithuainia.....
Who da F... is Otmar Issing ? Why is that the BLS that cames out of his mouth is worth listening?
Otmar Issing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Otmar Issing (b. 27 March 1936 in Würzburg) is a German economist, president of the Center for Financial Studies (Goethe University Frankfurt) and former member of the board of the Deutsche Bundesbank (1990–1998) and of the Executive Board of the European Central Bank (1998–2006).[1] He is an advisor for Goldman Sachs.[2] He developed the 'two pillar' approach to monetary policy decision making that the European Central Bank (ECB) has adopted.
The key word that Issing used that should be highlighted in this discussion is “guilt.” Germany was the loser in two disastrous wars, but the nations involved in this have plenty to answer for when it comes to guilt – on both sides.
Exactly what was Issing’s motivation since it is difficult to believe that Andrea Merkel would have used the word “guilt”?
The man misrepresents his people, the Germans, as the vast majority weren’t even alive during the Second World War. And to suggest that they bear this responsibility is to give in to the constant Zionist propaganda keeping alive those years long ago when a totalitarian government occupied Germany.
Two forces are attempting to pin the responsibility for rescuing the euro on Germany: the international bankers who want their money back from the political loans they crafted in Greece, Italy, Spain, et cetera, and the Zionists primarily based in the United States who would use every opportunity to push a U.S. Empire by using what they label hatred and bigotry. The media then, such as Reuters, carries their message of attaching guilt to Germany. The Jews by strategy need a constant enemy, a constant reminder of the Holocaust, in order that they can use the U.S. Empire to wipe out their enemies.
It’s been 67 years since Hitler but there is a modern Holocaust in the Middle East -- war, slaughter of innocents, deadly sanctions and an occupied, punished Palestine. Do we divert our eyes forever from current events to focus on the ghosts of the past?
I read a story about WWII once, and the words 'international bankers' and 'Zionists' were in the same sentence.
I read a story about WWII once, and the words 'international bankers' and 'Zionists' were in the same sentence.
JR, just a small detail: during the planning and introduction phases of the EUR, the "international banks" were against it. lots of recycled propaganda floating around nowadays that was crafted then.
they feared, and they were right, that this would reduce their business.
" the "international banks" were against it."
There were some clever banking bastids(and their political minions) here in the USA who pretended to be against the Federal Reserve Act(aka Aldrich Bill -Glass/Owen Bill, all same same):
from:
The History of the “Money Changers”(scroll down to 1912)
did you notice 1800? "in France, the Bank of France was set up. However Napoleon decided France had to break free of the debt and he therefore never trusted this bank. He declared that when a government is dependent on bankers for money, it is the bankers and not the government leaders that are in control."
Hmmm ... then what was it about the Bank of France that caused Napoleon to use the Darier Hentsch & Cie Bank (founded 1796, Switzerland) to fund his European Wars?
Did he prefer to have the Swiss rather than the French in control of the French government? Was that your point?
the last key legislator of the continent was Napoleon. His influence is in a myriad of constitutional and legal principles, here. Including a general preference to national instead of financial interest. To put it differently, we are generally harsher on our failing banks, compared to you having a stronger contract law preference.
having said that, the difference was not that strong, up to now. but it might surprise in the future
Napolean also purportedly said this in that 1800 section:
Whether it was Napolean who actually said that or not, I have no way of knowing for sure. But the words certainly ring true for me.
statist. I think I really can say without anybody complaining that Napoleon was quite the statist. i-dog really dislikes this attitude, unfortunately the european continent is strongly statist and Old Boney entrenched lots of revolutionary statist ideals in our laws, customs and constitutions.
and when the state does not get what it wants from the financers, it can get quite mad at them. we continentals often see the state as our ally against "financial speculators", i.e. people that lent us money we can't pay back or similar things, including real financial crime
in the same way we think that to control a government, you need another government, and perhaps a third one to balance things. the more they get themselves in the way, the more freedom we expect from the result. a habit based on our history
and 1866? "The European central bankers** wanted the re-institution of a central bank under their control and an American currency backed by gold. They chose gold as gold has always been relatively scarce and therefore a lot easier to monopolize, than, for example, silver, which was plentiful in the United States, and had been found in huge quantities with the opening of the American West." Though note that some of those "balances" have changed and many goldbugs will have some issues with the above.
Edit: (**) central bankers or bankers? or bankers in collusion with government and central bank?
and, why not, for i-dog's delight, 1898: "Pope Leo XIII stated the following on the subject of usury,
Rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless under a different form but with the same guilt, still practiced by avaricious and grasping men...so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the masses of the poor a yoke little better than slavery itself.""
LOL ... given the consistent and unbroken trail of high immorality and downright evil of the Popes and officials of the Roman Catholic church over the centuries, their "opposition" to usury as a venal sin rings somewhat hollow!
well, you probably know that the biggest (financial) convention in the middle ages was that lending for a fee was a sin you were not allowed to commit on a fellow correligionist.
So Christians lending to Jews or the other way around was ok.
The truth is that this brought forth the model of Christians lending to Jews and they lending to Christians. Financial intermediation.
Eventually, this business was too good and too powerful, so "something had to be done". See the history of the Fugger and the Medici, including the papacies of the Medici.
I did not junk you, btw
Disinchanted, this link has many details that are debatable, nevertheless: it's all in an US/UK view. Nearly nothing about the the rest of the world. Yes, the Fed is the queen of the central banks, but there are 110 of them, and nearly all of them are organized differently, have different policies and function on different principles - though mainly because their government's policies are different.
One pops in my mind in a really forceful way: the Fed is the only CB that supports a stock market as part of her duties.
"Disinchanted, this link has many details that are debatable"
Yes...probably in the eyes of the status quo establishment approved view of things it is debatable.
"Yes, the Fed is the queen of the central banks"
I'd say that is debatable as well...IMO it's just another one of the worker bees. They all cordinate under the BIS.
Your last point, I'd probably agree with...but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know all the ties between other country's CBs and their respective bourses/stock markets.
The main reason why I started commenting on ZH is the near-absolute lack of several point of views outside the UK and US, where there is this idea that there is the MSM and the non-MSM - two sides only.
the BIS? the BIS is a bit like the bank of the central banks - not the CB of CBs. a difference that is tricky to understand. This to point out that I'm confused how/why you use the concept of "they coordinate" - on which I agree - with "under" the BIS.
to simplify: the BIS works a bit like a broker and a banker for CBs. Lots of shady deals, of course, on behalf of her clients. Does sound familiar?
re: the BIS
here's their words:
All that could be interpreted in many ways... cordinate, "collaborate" ...six of one, half dozen of the other. get my drift?
From what I've read the Rothschilds were a major influence in the creation of the BIS.
"BIS is a bit like the bank of the central banks - not the CB of CBs. a difference that is tricky to understand."
When you boil it all down I'm not sure there's much of a difference. To me the "Bank of the Central Banks" connotates that it is the head of the hydra.
I agree that this is a US/UK centric place as far as point of views...actually the majority of opinions/p.o.v. here are US based. But I guess that's to be expected since as I understand it the original focus of this site was mostly on US financial mkts.
+1 lol - ok, I'd say more the liver or the sphincter of the Hydra. Note that on ZH I usually defend CBs more than not, and I'm usually a bit allergic to the "Rothschilds" meme because I believe this is only one of the groups and a very diffuse one, too.
anyway: the US financial markets are global, in their effects
"I'm usually a bit allergic to the "Rothschilds" meme because I believe this is only one of the groups and a very diffuse one, too."
What if some or all of those other groups are nothing more than agents and frontmen for the R group? Do you think they are above using those sorts of tactics?
Since you are European what can you tell me about P2(Propaganda Due) in Italy? Whose interests were they serving...or is that all just some silly conspiracy theory? Roberto Calvi "God's Banker" and all that...
1982: 'God's banker' found hanged
ow, ow, this is headache stuff. I was in Italy during those times. I can tell you that the P2 was seen by many as as the political arm of Operation Gladio. And this has to be seen in the context of Washington-funded orgs against Moscow-funded orgs plus the Mafia, plus the Italian State and plus the Vatican, at least.
No, most of it is not conspiracy theory. But lots of it was overblown by the media. Just for example, in the link the article was picturing Archbishop Paul Marcikus as "the bodyguard of the Pope", which is silly.
Remember: the media loves Vatican scandals. And the catchy "God's banker found hanging" headline is one that sells.
Having said that: I honestly don't know. Lots of it could be, though often not the way the media portraits it. He was for sure killed, this is quite factual. But he did embarass many more than just the Vatican before his death.
To put it differently: we are talking about Italy. Nice country, but there are many things you can do there that lead you to a spectacular accident. As they say there: he tried to get on their nerves, ergo it was obviously suicide.
Back to this point again:
Ghordius said:
"the Fed is the queen of the central banks"
IMO the real 'queen' is in the 'the Square Mile' aka the 'Crown' which has nothing to do with the Royalty of England(i.e. Queen Elizabeth). All other country's CBs are subsidiaries. Wash DC and the Vatican are subsidiaries as well. As this person laid out here:
Dissecting the New Age - The Trinity of Global Empire
(well maybe he considered the three entities as somewhat equals, but I get the sense that the real decisions are made in 'The City')
I say the Vatican is a subsidiary of the 'Crown'(Rothschild controlled) because of this statement in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia that:
I seriously doubt that has changed since. The Rothschilds have probably by now(long ago?) employed agents and frontmen to take care of the duties of 'guarding the papal treasure' to make the appearance that it is no longer they in actual control. But my main point would be that once they controlled the papal treasure, the Vatican/Catholic Church was co-opted and controlled by the Rothschilds. Just as when the 'Federal Reserve'(most likely also a front for the 'Crown') took control of the USA's money, we were also co-opted and controlled...if not before then.
But I'm just a blue collar nobody existing in midwestern flyover country in the USA, so what do I know.
first, let me bristle at "nobody". Nobody is nobody. You are a human being. And knowledge is something none of us is born with. Curiosity has more value than existing knowledge, even in science, of all things. and I'm european, not a coastal 'merican. I find myself - when watching this strange culture war you are having - often cheering for your side.
probably i-dog will bite me again for this, but how can the Vatican be so powerful if so much is controlled by non-catholics? he has given me lots of very complex answers worth a thought, but nothing I'd call convincing evidence. Of Rome being equivalent to NY and the City. I'd say Jerusalem is way more important and influential.
Did you read the article? "The guardian of the papal treasure" was at least ironic, it was "lending to the Papal States", among other families to other Italian Sovereigns. In a way, the Popes felt very liberal and hip by lending from jews and the jewish lenders felt they could sneer a bit back with the quip of being guardians of the papal debt.
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the Fed is special because the USD is used as global reserve currency since quite a while, a very profitable, powerful and difficult position.
Ghordius said:
"guardians of the papal debt."
Would you agree with this?:
"when you control the debt you control everything"
Although that quote is from the movie The International
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Fq228lR2A
they are words that ring true to me. Whether it refers to debts from wars/conflicts, national debts, or "papal debt." That two or three minutes of dialog is probably THE most profound thing I've ever heard in a movie...any movie.
As for Jerusalem being way more important, I'd agree it is now. But that only took place after 1948.
I'm sure you are aware of the influence and power of the Rothschilds in modern Israel, right?
Here's the opinion on the Rothschilds and Israel at a site about Israeli wines...not a political or extremist religious site, just a site about wine. I think it's illuminating...so to speak:
Could this have something to do with Jerusalem becoming "way more important and influential" in the last sixty some years?
edit: But having said that The Vatican is still very influential to millions of Gentiles the World over. But what if the same entity that has/had great power and control in making Jerusalem much more influential, also had control over the traditional center of Gentile religion?
I'm enjoying this rather sane discussion(by ZH standards) btw. Cheers, and thanks for the slap on the wrist about being a nobody.
Oh yes I almost forgot...
"Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the Fed is special because the USD is used as global reserve currency since quite a while, a very profitable, powerful and difficult position."
Maybe that has more to do with this from my above post: "Washington DC(military)"
edit: 'petrodollar' and US military needing massive amounts of petroleum to do what they do...if you get my drift.
additional edit: Even though I think the Rothschilds are very powerful and control many things on this planet(more than many realize), in the end I doubt they are the ultimate power. I see them(and just a few others like them) more as upper management in world affairs. I'm leaning more and more to the idea that the ultimate powers over the corrupted earth are what the gnostics called the "archons"(aka the "rulers" or "authorities"). Not a single "God" nor "The Devil," "Satan," or "Lucifer." I've become very certain that many things are not what they seem in this false construct of the status quo modern day world.
But that's a whole different story.
it is nice and enjoyable to have a conversation, yes, particularly with you
I agree with the "who controls the debt controls everything" (I would add a "nearly") - in the times of Rothschild, it used to be "who controls money (the creation or issuance thereof) controls everything". The second phrase might come back.
my point is more of the kind "only because someone uses Ghordius' methods, it does not mean he is Ghordius". And I apply this to old power-groups like the Rothschilds and the Vatican. Example: the British Empire ended, the current empire has similar methods, though this has not ended completely the influence of the old capital of the empire.
Seen this way, of course the Vatican/Rome still has a lot of influence. But the context is important, for example what Moscow or Bejing want. The power-groups shift and change, the empires too, the methods adapt. Sadly, we don't live in a simple world, even though some of us had the illusion of it being simple...
WTF are you arguing, that it is the "Zionists" trying to guilt Germany into bailing out Spain, Italy and the rest? That is obviously not the case.
I take it that someone missed the fact that Italy was an Axis power and therefore as guilty as Germany for WWII; Germany "robbed the bank," but Italy was the get-away driver. They both go to jail, equally guilty for the crime.
I take it someone missed the fact that Spain was Hitler's military proving grounds for his WWII armaments. The Stuka dive bomber didn't debut in Poland; it was tested and refined by Franco's Legion Condor in the Spanish Civil War. Spain has bloody hands as well.
I take it someone missed the fact that Greece had it's infamous "Security Battalions" known for their ruthless treatment of their own people after the Axis conquest. Today's New Dawn is the heritage of those battalions.
So tell me, what exactly does Germany have to feel guilty about, surrounded by such a cloud of fellow travelers from WWII?
-30-
I take it someone missed the fact that Spain was Hitler's military proving grounds for his WWII armaments. The Stuka dive bomber didn't debut in Poland; it was tested and refined by Franco's Legion Condor in the Spanish Civil War. Spain has bloody hands as well.
_______________________________________
Not really. After WWI, Germany was prohibited from developing and testing air force equipments on its national territory.
The US of A lobbied some european nations so they accepted to harbour German development and testing of equipment.
The development of the equipment was funded through the US, that also lobbied for the cancellment of the german debt while requesting from France and UK that they repaid their war debt to the US (US conduit of British and French resources to Germany so that the Germans could rearm)
The Germans, thanks to the US of A, were rebuilding and testing their military armament years before the War in Spain.
Of note:
After WWII many US army engineers noticed cities in Germany that had been bombed only months ago had streets cleared and most of the debris cleaned up and moved away, in contrast the cities of Italy and France that were known to have been bombed by the allies over a year ago still had not been cleaned up.
Italy still hasn't cleaned up the streets of Naples!
Leave Hillary out of this !
An American General in the Army of the Occupation said, "In France they were looking at the ruins, it Italy they weren't even looking at the ruins, but in Germany they were cleaning them up and rebuilding.
Germany needs this long slow painful process to allow its banks, the globally acknowledged muppets of the asset-backed and subprime heyday, to rebuild bank reserves without 'splainin to the hardworking mittelstand and the union boys just how badly they played the German hand in the NYC poker game Lloyd runs. Merkel is a physicist, she can't be snowed on the numbers. Keeping the news machine focused on Greeks taking holiday and Italians putting prostitutes on the govt payroll is a very effective storyline, why change it if its working? Breaking the future into convenient 3 week chunks between very public summit meetings keeps the London headline writers, and the algos that read them, entertained. The trendlines have been pretty positive, the EUR is down 7 percent and exports have held up. German public doesn't seem to know that their pension plans were the dumb money and that now they are paying. Capital rebuilding continues apace, the deflationary dark force. Merkel, ever the hausfrau, is taking this opportunity to redd-up the mess in public finances in both Italy and Spain. No sign of crisis going to waste. And not much sympathy either. The Italians aren't starving. Merkel's voters still remember a real war economy. Issing coming forward to stir the pot may mean the impact of weaker US and China growth is being felt. If so, they can risk EUR down below 1.10. Geithner tried to talk Schauble into a better exchange rate for Obama ahead of the election, and maybe it will hold until Nov 6th. The trip to Sult was effective in this sense, however: Geithner finally got to see a real Finance Minister in action.
They're just jealous because they don't have an Autobahn.
It's absolutely frightening that GS would actually have advisors. What must lurk in the mind of an advisor to GS?
I think what needs to be separated is the German people and the German government. The state is not society. And the German people are rejecting these bailouts. They know it's causing inflation. Every once in awhile some asshat will claim that if they went back to the DM, it appreciate and they all lose their export jobs. The exports are military equipment, who the fuck cares?
The German government doesn't give a shit about war guilt or the impact to Germans. They only care about power. They're agreeing to these bailouts because they think that they will be able to pull at the strings that are attached to these deals.
Hopefully a group of Germans are smart enough to realize that this is all bullshit and take power away from their government.
BTW, the euro is part of continuing German war reparations imposed by the French as an agreement to allow East and West Germany to reunify. Read Mitterrand.
The universal enemy of Socialist governments are inventive, family oriented, hard working, freedom loving, guilt free, thrifty, life affirming people of Faith ! Throw the cream to the pigs is all Socialists know .... and that is all YOU have to know ! The German people's good works throughout history far outweigh their moments of slumming with universal Socialism ! Monedas forgives the German people and welcomes them back to the fight against the true evil .... SOCIALISM !
As a kid I got an insight into the Teutonic management style. I worked for a medium sized company who's manager was Lothar, a guy who was awarded his Blut und Ehre knife at the close of the war. Straight out of central casting for an SS uniform. Tall, thin, ramrod back and ice cold blue eyes.
His method was to stare at a distance until your neck hair stood up and you corrected what was out of place, then he would vanish. He could run 200 employees without a word. Everything clean, efficient and orderly at all times, no discussion or excuses.
At a lunch meeting someone noticed Abe's forearm with a number tattoo and began a discussion about the camps. The taciturn Lothar was asked how Germany's civilians reacted to events and his reply was "Germans follow orders."
Germany's dominance in industry is no mystery.
It is true that Germany has a particularly shameful past. The country has taken steps to atone for its past sins and is to be commended.
While its supposed friends and allies try to blackmail rescue funds from it based on its aggression in the first half of the century, we should remember that
Human beings have been killing each other for years. In fact, our DNA shows adaptions to permit cannibalism. We are a nasty species. If you are alive, you have blood on your hands. One of your ancestors killed his fellow man so you could be here today.
Stop blackmailing the Germans.
http://dareconomics.wordpress.com/
Yes, yes, human nature is bad, usual self reinforcing 'American' song.
Funny enough, when introduced with the reality that there are still a few communauties left that were only involved in defensive wars, 'Americans' are used to rationalizing this fact by belittling those communauties, claiming they have achieved nothing in human history.
When they are introduced with the even fewer communauties that were neither involved in defensive or offensive wars, woooo, welcome to the world of non humanity, as brought to you by US citizens.
AnAnonymous, glupi majmune!
Jebo te pas mater u dupe.
Oh, you are just so communaughty!
American Citizenism means greater freedom, justice and prosperity for everyone. I'm on board with it. If you're into something else you're a crook or a moron.
Slavery Olympics
China - GOLD
India - SILVER
Indonesia - BRONZE
Brazil - sure busted a nut trying