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Was The NYPD Responsible For 10 Of The 11 People Shot Yesterday?
Update: Yes it was - Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers
The official media-friendly narrative explaining yesterday's latest tragic shooting incident in midtown Manhattan in which a recently unemployed Jeffrey Johnson, 58, walked up to his former boss and shot him three times point blank before "calmly" walking away, is that Johnson also shot 9 other people, luckily none fatally, before being taken down by the NYPD. Sadly, as so often happens these days, the "media-friendly" narrative is wrong, and as CBS and Guardian report, Johnson did not fire during the quote unquote shootout, in which at least nine other perfectly innocent were hit, all of them by stray NYPD bullets.
From CBS: "Police said it is unlikely that Johnson fired during the shootout." Uhm, then isn't shootout a somewhat inaccurate word? "One witness told investigators that Johnson fired, but ballistics tests don’t back that up, authorities said... At least nine other people on the street were also shot, but Mayor Michael Bloomberg said it is unclear whether they were shot by the suspect or police. “Some may have been shot accidentally by police officers who responded immediately,” Bloomberg said." In other words of the (at least) 11 people shot yesterday, 2 of whom fatally, the NYPD was responsible for 10 of those shot, 9 of whom were literally "collateral damage" in a non-shoot out, and should be sacrificing various animals to their assorted guns that the NYPD, in missing their designated target, is at least quite atrocious in hitting any major organs. All of which of course begs the question: is a hit-to-miss (and potentially hit-to-casualty) ratio of less than 10% for New York's finest really acceptable and is this the kind of statistic that NY City wishes to boast in enticing new tourists?
Below is a graphic complete clip of what happened around 9 am yesterday:
And some more on what really transpired via the Guardian:
Robert Asika was among those wounded, shot in the elbow from a distance of around eight feet by one of the two police officers who confronted Johnson. He accused police of "shooting randomly", and said he saw at least two others hit by police bullets.
"If you're gonna aim try and aim perfectly. If you wanna aim at the target, you got to know what you're doing because it's the street," Asika said. "I could have been dead right now. I could have been dead."
Asika was working on 5th Avenue on Friday morning, selling tickets for tour buses and the building's observation deck. He had only been in the job a week, after having been unemployed for over a year. "I was just standing there and I saw people running. I didn't want to run because I wanted to know why people were running so I turned around and I saw this guy," he said.
...
Police said Johnson been employed for six years as a designer of women's accessories at Hazan Imports. Kelly said during a press conference that he was laid off as part of a downsizing at the firm. Kelly described the gunman as a "disgruntled former employee" who came back to confront his former manager. "He shot and killed the former co-worker, striking him three times," Kelly said.
Johnson moved to draw his weapon, a .45 caliber handgun, as the officers approached, police said. There are conflicting reports as to what happened next. "The [police] tape clearly shows that the gunman had the gun out, and was trying to kill the officers," Bloomberg said. Other officials at the scene reportedly said the man had not fired on police.
The two police officers discharged 14 rounds, killing Johnson outside the entrance to the Empire State Building. Kelly at first said Johnson fired on officers, but police later said they were trying to determine whether Johnson fired. "These officers ... had absolutely no choice," Kelly said. "This individual took a gun out very close to them and perhaps fired at them."
He didn't. Instead he was mowed down in a cannonade of fire by the NYPD which has shot at least 9 other perfectly innocent bystanders, of whom miraculously none were killed.
Four women and five men were taken to city hospitals with gunshot wounds, but none was believed to be in a life-threatening condition. Police shut down nearby streets as forensic teams checked the gunman's body. The FBI were quick to confirm that the attack was not an act of terrorism.
Askia described the scene when officers caught up with Johnson. He said the gunman stopped six feet away from him, with two officers about eight feet in the other direction. "All of a sudden the guy stopped, and he was facing a cop who was following him," Asika said.
"He just reached in his suit and took out the gun, and I saw him pull it [towards] the cops. I'm like, is this guy for real? One of the cops was trying to shoot back at him and one of them shot me while the other one shot the guy."
"As soon as the bullet hit me, I felt like I didn't feel it. But then as soon as I tried to get up, I couldn't get up. I looked there and the blood was gushing out," Asika said.
"I was crawling, trying to get across the street, to the safe side of the street. I got across the street and I just fell at the bus stop and I was laying there and I couldn't get up no more. I was so tired, I was so scared. I've never been scared like that in my whole life."
...
Erica Solar, a mother of two who works as a receptionist on 37th Street, was hit in the back of the leg as she made her way to Dunkin' Donuts. Solar's friend, Christopher Collins, found her lying on the street as he got off a bus on his way to work.
"She was basically in shock. She didn't know if she had gotten stabbed or if she had gotten shot, but she just knew she was bleeding, and I was just there trying to keep her calm until paramedics arrived," Collins told the Guardian.
"It was chaotic. Everybody was running, cops were there immediately," Collins said. Solar was taken to Bellevue hospital, about a mile from the Empire State Building.
Another among the wounded was Media Rosario, from Brooklyn, who like Solar was hit in the back of the leg. She said that everything happened so fast, she saw people running, and when she turned around to see what happened, she was already shot," said her sister-in-law, Auselis Rosario.
...
Asika said Bloomberg visited him in hospital, but he received no apology from police.
That's explainable: the Mayor was likely distracted by his profound confusion how a deranged assassin with intent to kill was so blatantly unaware of New York City Administrative Code § 10-131 on the use of Firearms, which effectively makes any use or carrying of guns in the city of New York illegal.
Oh well, time to cut the maximum legal size of a New York soda drink by edict one more time.
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Yes, but someone probably showed them the basics... safety, rack, load magazines, full auto....
Then again, most Americans probably picked up that much watching pg13 tv...
I guess we won't really know until theories are tested!
This is regional I think. In vast swathes of the country between the coastal bubble zones and outside the shitholes of large cities it is common knowledge in childhood.
"If Cops supposedly trained to shot [sic] with accuracy can't hit their intended targets, can't imagine that average well armed dopes aim. [sic]"
Key word: SUPPOSEDLY. 99% of cops aren't trained worth shit.
I'm quite confident your average citizen gun enthusiast is more capable with a firearm than most cops are. QUITE confident.
Dear lizzy: Get a first person shooter video game and have at it for a couple months, then with your modicum of experience, take the hand gun of your choice to a range and have a go at the paper hanging attackers. I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised at how obviously ignorant you appeared to be.
Should be simple and quick to determine...a possibly unreliable search tells me NYPD carries (Glock 19) 9mm. Johnson is alleged to have been carrying a 45.
Dig the bullets out, collect the brass. They are quite a bit different.
Pete
PS
My search also tells me NYPD carries Speer Gold Dot 124 grain 9mm ammunition and likely at LEO "power load level" ...and I believe that to be a JHP. Again, I am NOT sure, but someone else on ZH might be. i imagine getting hit with a +P - or greater - JHP in even a non lethal area can do quite a bit of damage. Non lethal wound does not mean NOT f@cked up big time for life. Yeah, you to ought to aim well and hit the f@cking target even in a high stress situation and especially in a crowded civilian setting.
Cops are trained to dunk donuts, not solve crime.
Mr LH - cops are trained to shoot those holes in the donuts. How else do you think they get there? 100% accuracy, every time. Now, you don't want to know how that so-called jelly gets inside the donuts, or what it really is.
Let's hear it for our boyz in blue - especially the ones with jelly streaks on their shorts - er, shirts.
New Rules:
1. Any municipality that outlaws gun ownership by it's citizens needs to take them away from the police as well. Look at the stats: More people shot by police on any given day by police then the derranged. Looks dangerous to me. Take their guns away.
2. Anytime a policeman shoots someone they should go on trial for attempted manslaughter. Police in New York City are scum. They lie and deceive citizens on a daily basis.
3. We need to do away with any soverign immunity or limited liability for individuals that work for municipalities and municipalities. No one cares about the citizens with such laws in place.
Strays?
How come not one fucking cop was hit by a stray?
That's a pretty good idea, no matter how you feel about guns and gun control. If the "citizens" aren't packing, the cops needn't either.
They could keep a few weapons at the precinct that can be called in for sieges and such, like in some other civilized countries.
Look at the google map of the area, http://maps.google.fr/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&clien... and see the mistake Johnson made. His escape route took him past the nearest Dunkin Donuts, where the bozos in blue were waiting for him.
Broke, unemployed, pissed off, with a gun against a trigger happy authority. You are going to see a lot more rage before it's over is my bet. It's only just beginning as the unemployment benefits run out and more businesses layoff or close.
They need to be disarmed until they complete some basic training.
First reassign them to the Mayor's office.
They were just following the standard police policy of "Shoot first...find someone to blame later"
Mayor Michael Bloomberg said it is unclear whether they were shot by the suspect or police. --CBS
Unclear? This from Bloomberg, the voice of the police state?
From Economic Policy Journal August 9, 2012:
Mayor Bloomberg Turns NYC Into a Microsoft Surveillance State : Everyone will be watched.The New York Daily News reports: The Domain Awareness System designed by the NYPD and Microsoft Corp. uses data from a network of cameras, radiation detectors, license plate readers and crime reports, officials said.
“We’re not your mom and pop police department anymore,” Mayor Bloomberg crowed. “We are in the next century. We are leading the pack.”...
Using the new system, investigators will be able to access information through live video feeds and could potentially see who left a suspicious package behind just moments later, [Police commissioner Ray] Kelly said....
“We can track where a car associated with a murder suspect is currently located and where it’s been over the past several days, weeks or months,” Kelly said. “This is a system developed by police officers for police officers.”
The system will also check license plate numbers to a watch list and alert investigators if a match is detected and quickly pull up crime reports, arrests and warrants on a suspect.
The system has some civil liberties advocates warning of Big Brother type surveillance.
“We fully support the police using technology to combat crime and terrorism, but law-abiding New Yorkers should not end up in a police database every time they walk their dog, go to the doctor, or drive around Manhattan,” said New York Civil Liberties Union Associate Legal Director Chris Dunn.
Technolog reports: ...
The city has thousands of cameras, more than a hundred license plate readers, and has now deployed 2600 radiation detectors with officers on patrol...
It could reasonably be called an all-seeing surveillance system...
And Bloomberg is not stopping there, he is going to pimp for Microsoft and push other cities to buy the program:
The system, which cost somewhere between $30 and $40 million to develop, could also help pay for itself with the city expecting to earn 30% of the profits on Microsoft sales to other city’s and countries, Bloomberg said.
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/08/mayor-bloomberg-turns-nyc-into.html
Whatever happened to "of the people, by the people for the people?"
and that is why NYC should be forcibly ejected from the United States and take all the treasonous financial terrorists with them.
“We’re not your mom and pop police department anymore,” Mayor Bloomberg crowed. “We are in the next century. We are leading the pack.”...
You sure are, in Fascism you dikhed.
Sitting in the Cesspool pf America, 5-6 generations of welfare recips, never had, or ever will get a job.............democratic territory, and voters supreme.
NYPD takes out frustrations on a perp again, with little regard for anyone else. To nail 10 bystanders says a lot about their aim, and attitude towards safety, in general.
Ignorant.
Bloomberg needs to find a new excuse.
While all are complaining about the stupid police, take a look at the mother or old sister of the little girl with the blue shirt.
There you can observe much better, what the western regime does to people. No need to wonder about undisciplined police...
then at the end of that video, she runs BACK INTO FRAME with a little boy in a green shirt (her son?) following her. way to protect the children, honey.
wow, just wow.
That looked like a classic suicide by cop. In this case the Keystone cops.
You feel that Allen? Huh? That tingling in your balls, big amount of butterflies fluttering around your stomach?
Perhaps worst non-story ever posted on ZH.
Is argument that police should have waited
- a few more seconds before shooting? (No thank you!)
- earlier?
- with fewer bullets?
- should spend more time on practice range before being deployed?
- should be screened better for military/special forces type capabilities?
- should attend more liability training in law school classrooms?
No. No. No. No!
Perhaps, author has just administrative beefs? Bloomberg should be more contrite? Apologetic? Perhaps media should not report so fast, but should wait til all,parties have been interviewed and scientists have opined? Perhaps government should spend more otax dollars on public services? Borrow more? No, no, no, no, no!
I'm not a "professional writer", so excuse myself for occasional incoherent sentences, but I expect bloggers to to do better than me.
Author implies death of shooter was part of police sloppiness???
If above is not enough to make this non-story ZH's worst, I have just one last comment.
Thank you NYPD for being there, armed, to stop this shooter from killing more people. It seems to me that, even those bystanders who may have been inadvertently hit owe them an big thank you, as well.
You are out of your mind. There is no defense and no excuse for police shooting NINE INNOCENT PEOPLE, regardless of one gunman.
Each police officer should be arrested and held for attempted murder. Each one should get 20 years to life for their heinous crime.
IF YOU CAN'T HIT YOUR TARGET, YOU DO NOT SHOOT, PERIOD!!!!!!!
Michael Bloomberg should be forced to resign along with the NYPD Chief.
If my son would have been hit by a stray bullet fired in this incident. I would head straight to NYPD headquarters with a gun and shoot every cop I see. My excuse would be their excuse. "I was aiming for a criminal with a gun." Since my intent was not to hit any police officers there is no way I could be charged with a crime.
Or is it that criminal behavior is somehow excused if you carry a badge. Defending these cops is as bad as pulling the trigger on an innocent yourself.
Law enforcement officers in this country have proven beyond a doubt that they can not be trusted with the protection of the population.
The US Military doesn't do any better. How many innocent children did they kill and maim in Iraq? Madeline Albright: "We think it was worth it."
Look at the film. They did not need to shoot period. They could of simply decked the old man. This was not a drug crazed 28 year old. Hell, they could of tracked him untill he was in a secluded place. What a bunch of idiots!
Ignorant.
If the NYPD hadn't been there, this guy probably would have walked home and killed himself due to being so depressed. No collateral damage and more doughnut munching time for the boys in blue!
"thank them?"
for what? shooting nine innocent people? for taking an already bad situation and making it worse?
does your boss thank you when you fuck up at your job?
yeah, they shot nine people, let's give them praise, thanks, a medal and a raise while we're at it.
in what world does your comment make sense, cause I'd like to avoid it.
Dumb fuck.
"Thank you NYPD for being there, armed, to stop this shooter from killing more people. It seems to me that, even those bystanders who may have been inadvertently hit owe them an big thank you, as well."
The guy was walking away from his former place of employment after killing who he came to kill. You don't know what his intentions were.
And the victims of cops spraying bullets all over a crowded sidewalk owe a big thank you to the cops for the new scars they will carry for the rest of their lives?...really?
Have you noticed the new meme from the anti gun zealots lectures us about how it's not like in the movies? Armed citizens can't just pull out their gun like your favorite action hero and stop a crime.
Yes I have...yet it happens everyday.
"A couple was approached by 29-year-old Christopher Rigby as they sat in a vehicle in the parking lot of Earl’s True Value around 11 p.m. Rigby, who appeared homeless, asked the couple for a dollar. When they refused, he walked away. Approximately 15 minutes later, Rigby returned and approached the driver’s side window. Rigby then produced a knife and tried to stab the man in the driver’s seat. The driver quickly grabbed a gun from the console and shot Rigby in the chest as the woman in the car dialed 911. Rigby was pronounced dead at a local hospital. (The Free Lance-Star, Stafford, VA, 5/24/12)"
"Duanne Ammann, 60, owner of a convenience store, was filling a cooler with drinks around 6 p.m. when brothers Quinten Felton, 17, and Eddie Felton, 20, entered the store. Both men were wearing bandannas and ski masks. Eddie was carrying a rifle. With the barrel of the rifle pointed at his face, Ammann was ordered to open the cash register. He was then knocked to the floor where Quinten began to violently kick the store owner. During the struggle, Ammann was able to reach the handgun he kept under the store counter. He fired once hitting Quinten in the abdomen. Ammann fired three more rounds in Eddie’s direction, who still had the rifle pointed at him. They fled, but the bodies of both men were later found nearby. Ammann was treated for his injuries and released from the hospital. (The Daily Advance, Hobbsville, NC, 5/24/12)"
"One afternoon, a woman was caring for her two grandchildren. Both children were playing outside when one of the kids ran inside the home and said there was a bear outside. The grandmother quickly ran outside and grabbed the other child. The woman had learned from wildlife officials that making noise will often scare bears away depending on the circumstances. She collected two cooking pots and went outside to shoo the bear away by banging them together. Instead of running away, the bear turned on the woman and attacked her. Luckily, a neighbor heard the commotion and ran outside with a gun. He shot at the bear to chase it away. The woman was flown by helicopter to a nearby hospital. Authorities reported that her injuries were not believed to be life-threatening. The bear was later located and killed by a State Patrol trooper. (The Denver Post, Denver, CO, 5/20/12)"
I could clog up the entire thread with these but everyone should get the point.
I've also noticed how they presume to pick for me which rights I may exercise and which I will not. Which leads me to the question of...which will I pick for them? ;-)
We had one here in Phoenix. A guy accidentally tapped the guy in front of him at a stop light. The guy in front got out waving a weapon and the guy in back put three in his chest.
I told my boys 'never show your weapon, ESPECIALLY if your going to use it. Keep it hidden till the last second then use it quickly.
Some people exit the gene pool rather quickly...most of it really is nothing but common sense.
I've pulled mine out and laid it on the seat when I was in an uncomfortable situation...didn't show it, didn't want to give up tactical advantage by showing it...just had it there, ready, if needed. The issue passed and I slid it back into its holster and hiding spot...it was a gang of "yout's" at an intersection walking through the cars at a stop light.
Quite a few Floridians own weapons & carry them down here. We're generally more civil around each other ;-)
I can't speak for states other than the one I live in and am licensed to carry concealed, but that license does not make me a peace officer, meaning I have the option to respond, not a duty to respond. But having that option, a serious responsibility and commitment requiring continuing education and skill retention, is not one I am willing to go without.
You're absolutely right...its an option not a duty.
I don't have a carry license and won't ever get one. They don't need to know what I own under any pretense. In Florida you can carry legally in your vehicle under the three step rule to put it into action...in other words, in my situation above with it closer to hand on the seat, instead of holstered and requiring me to reach, I was technically illegal at that point.
I shoot fairly regularly...not as much as I used to though. Used to be two-three times a week...now every month or so.
With respect to CCL, I can understand your position. I churned that over in my mind a while myself before I ran the bureaucratic gauntlet. I was in the military, so uncle sam already has my particulars. As far as what I actually own or carry, well, that's a different enchilada. Aside from the general class of weapon (revolver or semi-auto and <.50 cal), my CCL is non-descriptive. Now, my other license (armed PI/Security) is more restrictive in terms of either/or and number of weapons carried. I am not in security and more and more of the work I am asked to do (regarding computer forensics) falls under what the state considers "private investigation". I went through the extra expense for the armed license due to the legal status of my concealed firearm (it's not) while performing "investigative" work for a client and the likelihood that this type of service will continue to grow as a percentage of my billable time.
"Aside from the general class of weapon (revolver or semi-auto and <.50 cal), my CCL is non-descriptive."
Admittedly, ts been a while since I looked into CCL's. I am under the impression that if one wanted to change their carry weapon (semi to revolver for example or back again) they would have to amend the permit...any truth to that or do you know? Its one of the reasons I declined to "inventory" myself to the state. Just a curiosity question, that was my interpretation of it anyways.
In your line of work I understand the desire for compliance, to be legal, as we know the term legal today. I would be forced to do the same. I just think its another intrusion of a basic right, we should be naturally legal to carry, just as anyone with criminal intent can carry (with or without a permit) instead of making criminals out of what are generally the law abiding.
I'm pretty hard core about the issue just like the rest of my beliefs I suppose ;-)
Where I live, for a personal CCL, if I qualify with a semi, I can carry either a semi or revolver. If I qualify with a revolver, then I am stuck with just revolvers. I qualified with a semi.
For my other license, I can carry (open or concealed, based on security or investigations, respectively) only what I qualify with, and only one of them (no backup). I can qualify with both, but I have to take the same course twice and qualify on each type - I opted for the semi. The course and range time take 4 8hr days and it's not cheap. With both flavors of personal and professional license, I can carry concealed and not worry about whether or not I am legal. With a couple of exceptions, the professional license does not allow me to legally carry any place my personal doesn't.
Thanks, I think that confirms my apprehension of it, the mechanics of the regs.
I just don't believe granny (or anybody) should have to show proficiency to the state because she went from a revolver to a semi. I'm fine with either of course (my usual is a Beretta 84 with me when I'm away) she may or may not be, that point is irrelevant to her right of carrying it. She (or they) chose it so the assumption is they know how to use it for their own defense. Its none of the states business or mine what she carries. Its hers.
And no (I know what your thinking...lol...and its true of me at times) the law doesn't prevent me from exercising my rights as an American or a human for that matter...some of those laws just makes it illegal is all. I accept the consequences of my actions, even as I disagree with the premise of some laws.
Maybe The officer should have kicked the perps gun out of his hand like in the movies...
I junked ya for lack of common sense.
Maybe the officers should have commanded the suspect to stop and get down flat on the ground, like they are trained to do.
Maybe this would have given innocent pedestrians a chance to get clear before the shooting started, like they are trained to do.
Maybe the officers should have put one or two rounds center mass when all other options were exhausted instead of spraying & praying, like they are trained to do.
Lots of maybes..
Your a fucking retard. Any sensible shooter/law enforcement/ spec ops shooter will have been to a whole host of shooting schools to develop SHOOTING DISCIPLINE. Why shoot 14 rounds when 1 could have done the same thing. However, from looking at the video and after action reports these cops did not shoot to stop or disable, but to kill. Our own executioners of street justice. And yes, it will be my pleasure to have enough attorneys descend upon these cops to give us months of after action into the temper and intent of these cops, the training received or lack of (my guess is that training folders are being updated as we speak since these cops will be going into FULL CYA mode. Methinks that (as Paul Harvey would say) and now for the rest of the story...
Street gangsters doing drive-by shootings with automatic weapons hit fewer innocent bystanders. This is inexcusable. You, sir, are an idiot.
Brynjo, most of the ZH commentors are ignorant "Occupy"/99%er types who have no clue about anything they comment on.
Another clueless noob. How about you go fuck yourself sir.
What? Most of them get torn apart here. You get GW and his DKos crowd but they get verbally abused pretty severely with regularity. This is the statement of somebody unable to think beyond "If somebody doesn't like the repubs, they must be Obama lovers" which is fucking stupid.
That you can justify this level of incompetence on the part of police who did far more damage to the populace than the shooter did is ridiculous.
Ignorant indeed.
"Cannonading" 14 shots at the suspect delivered by least two police officers is the epitome of incohesion in the police force. Where is any sign of strategy to "protect and defend" here? These cops had time on the way to select one - ONE - lead officer to discharge his firearm in the case that this one man needed to be taken down. These collateral injuries are completely unacceptable.
They are sharpshooters with pepperspray...
Only for sitting targets.
Bloomberg may want to consider sending his "own private army" (his words) back to basic after this.
if you think about it, outside of maybe the county sherrif we really don't have police forces anymore, what we do have are militarized, heavily armed thugs juiced and prescription medicated out of their gourds and then turned loose on a public that still believes that they are there to protect and serve.
NYPD is among the worst, Bloomberg wasn't kidding when he said private army as they are better equiped and have more firepower than some countries, hell they could go to war with Canada and they would win. when the time comes they won't need to put the regular military or the NG out on the streets, because they are steadily building a domestic army "as powerful and well trained as the military" that will be available to get the job done.
we used to call them cops, police or the fuzz but those days are gone, now what we really should be calling then is security forces because that is exactly what they are.
Battery operated mercenaries.
Intelligence not included.
That is nearly unbelievable. The one cop seems to be trying to chase down the guy without weapon drawn...a suspected armed killer. He turns to the side and pulls his arms up as if he can hide or shield himself from the guy's gun. Had his gun been drawn he was so close he could have taken him down before he even got the gun out. Had the guy wanted to kill cops that cop would be dead now.
Exactly, did these supposed police officers ever have any type of weapon training?
I can hit a small 4" rotating target with a glock handgun from 25 yards nine out of 10 times. My missed shot only being off by an inch or so. I am not a target shooter by any means.
The only explanation is that these officers did not care if they hit innocent bystanders. Perhaps they wanted to.
On the street, you're only half as good as your best day on the range.
That said, completely missing a man-sized target at 25 feet is completely unacceptable.
ADR, you are a liar.
Next time you can turn the target and we'll find out.
Was the rotating target armed, with other targets laying around with hanging chads? Probably not. The policemen ran toward the firing. Very courageous but definitely in need of more training in close combat.
Go back to sleep.
Well, Jake. Take a look at the comments on this board, then think about the policies that result from such calm and reasoned people.
The policy and training of the NYPD is such that they can not draw their weapons IF the suspect being persued is not posing an IMMEDIATE danger.
The cops did not know if the suspect was still in possession of the weapon.
In this case if they were running around with their guns drawn and accidently discharged their weapon, the NYPD, the city, and the officer would have been sued out the @ss by folks like most of these ZH kids.
You need to stop thinking "in the moment".
WTF are you? Bloomberg damage control? An idiot cop? Even an idiot would have suspected that the guy was armed. If drawn weapons are considered to be more dangerous than allowing a lunatic to shoot people then do not chase armed suspects in a crowd and or change the dumb drawn weapon rule. What are you talkin about anyway? I have several times seen cops with drawn weapons when the suspect wasn't even in view.
So most of the innocent bystanders were only slightly wounded. It's sure as hell lucky the cops weren't using the new 40 cal hollow points that all the government agencies are stocking up on. These people would have been shredded to death.
Ignorant.
Here's a photo of a hollow point wound to the head. Take a look and learn something.
http://prettydead.com/gallery3/var/albums/reference_photos_CREATIVE/guns...
Thanks for proving my point regarding ignorance.
Okay kids. Tyler's blatant spin on the media reports aside. Below is some info from an old FBI study which will help you understand why law enforcement folks shoot multiple times. Not saying the NYPD were right or wrong; but to characterize THIS shooting the way it has been by some tells far more about the knowledge of some well intentioned but extremely ignorant commentators.
In short, unless you get a head shot, the person you are shooting at is still very much a threat for at least another 10 second. Plenty of time for them to get you with a head shot.
Oh yea, there's the old home defense adage of living attackers talk. And in a court of law that can be, problematic. Even if you are 100% within the law. Especially if the person you shot takes you to civil court.
In my opinion, all law enforcement military need to practice far more than they do; the only ones who truly get enough ammo to become expert shots portrayed in movies are the special operations community.
If you've never shot a handgun, go down to the local gun range and try it out. You'll be surprised how difficult it is to get off a head shot. But don't complain to me when movies arent as enjoyable because you now know all too well just how much fantasy is in their "artistic expression".
The Human Target (http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm)With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth.27 The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. However, except for the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed, none of the factors are within the control of the law enforcement officer.
Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.28
In fact, physiological factors may actually play a relatively minor role in achieving rapid incapacitation. Barring central nervous system hits, there is no physiological reason for an individual to be incapacitated by even a fatal wound, until blood loss is sufficient to drop blood pressure and/or the brain is deprived of oxygen. The effects of pain, which could contribute greatly to incapacitation, are commonly delayed in the aftermath of serious injury such as a gunshot wound. The body engages survival patterns, the well known "fight or flight" syndrome. Pain is irrelevant to survival and is commonly suppressed until some time later. In order to be a factor, pain must first be perceived, and second must cause an emotional response. In many individuals, pain is ignored even when perceived, or the response is anger and increased resistance, not surrender.
You do not need to get a head shot to incapacitate a person. Kill instantly, yes.
The premise that a person will start firing randomly if he is hit, is flat out wrong. The pain from a gunshot wound from the caliber the police fire is unbearable, especially if you are hit more than once in the body. Although you may not die for a few minutes, you will go into shock long before you are dead.
I guess the girl lying in the street shot in the leg, and not moving wasn't incapacitated from 1 nonlethal shot. I think she should be able to get up and run right at the attacker and take him down, don't you think?
I doubt you have ever fired a gun.
Do you know how ridiculous easy it is to get a head shot from less than ten feet? Especially if you are supposedly a trained police officer who should have fired his gun thousands of times in a range.
Anyone given a gun to protect the innocent should be able to handle the firearm with extreme precision, PERIOD! If you can;t handle the firearm, you should not be allowed to carry it.
The police go into any situation with a gun believing it will look like the shootout from Heat. They shoot first and survey the collateral damage later.
There is no excuse and no defense of the police action.
You are beyond ignorant of the difference between reality and specific shot placement. Read the whole report.
Most people fall on the ground after being shot from PURELY psychological reasons.
Angry people dont fall or stop until they are litterally physically incompacitated.
As for your "ridiculously easy" head shot comment, not only do you have no experience with a handgun but you also didnt read my comment about accuracy.
I agree with the "handle" a weapon comment, hence my point about practice and special operations vs non-special operations practice.
All and all, you are well intentioned but ignorant.
Your an idiot who doesn't understand the first thing about using handguns for self defense.
You are supposed to put two well-aimed shots into the center of mass of your target and then pause to assess. Two shots are generally quite sufficient to stop anyone except someone jacked up on PCP or Meth...ASSUMING you hit your target which is ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL. If the desired result was not achieved, then either 2 more shots to center of mass, or a single head shot, whichever seems most advisable under the circumstances, as each of those options has certain advantages and disadvantages which are beyond the scope of this discussion
What you DON'T do is empty your magazine in the general direction of the threat like these dopes did.
Surely you are a pathological liar and have never shot a firearm, much less execute a headshot on a stationary paper target at 50 feet.
The only ignorance is yours.
I was a Sgt in the 82nd. Fellow NCO was dating a seperated wife of another NCO. About 5'6", 150-60lbs. Goes to the house that he's court orders not to, drunk, with a entrenching tool and breaks in on the ex and the new guy who has a old. 45, with filched Army. 45 ball ammo. The ex wife is on the phone to 911 and it's all on tape. I heard it. The husbands yelling he's gonna kill them, the boyfriends yelling he's armed and is going to shoot. Husband keeps coming closer. He gets 3 .45s in the torso. Doesn't drop or stop. Forth one purposely in the face. That drops him and he dies. Anyway, we were a bit disappointed by the. 45, although the dead NCO was known as a tough little psycho
" But don't complain to me when movies arent as enjoyable because you now know all too well just how much fantasy is in their "artistic expression".
Another talking point meme.. You guys are out in full force.
Dr.,
Are you suggesting violence in media, advertising and gaming concurrent with relativistic morality has no influence on society?
Regardless, yea when one grows up and actually does things portrayed in movies one generally sees movies for what they are.... ways to make money off of man's subconscious affection for his own deification.
I am saying that the anti gun zealots are all on the same page and try to negate what us second amendment supporters believe. Almost every post tries to lecture us that we aren't some action hero in a movie... No matter what we do we can't stop a crime. But if you do even a little bit of homework you will find thousands of cases where armed citizens have done that exactly that.
Ahhh. Got ya. Agree. My point was different, but can understand why you commented the way you did.
Centurion, I have shot a handgun, not very often and not since the age of 14. I can tell you, without any doubt, that I could hit a human-sized target, ten times out of ten, with aimed fire at a range of 8 feet. The cops panicked, didn't aim, fired wildly into a crowd of people. What are you trying to say?
AB, read my comments about "accuracy".
Btw, you are dreaming about your skill set with a MOVING target.
How about you look at it this way... a targeted assassination with a predator drone strike probably would have done comparable "collateral damage." Maybe we should do away with police altogether then and just send in the drones. What do you think?
AB, please. You sound like a 19 year old kid whose daddy let him shoot his pistol when he turned 12 and now thinks he knows what he is talking about.
Dude. Just STFU.
He was not moving. View the video.
Last thanksgiving while hunting on my brother in laws land I walked up on a buck and a doe about 180yds away. I drew up and fired and hit the buck (not fatally). They both ran, I led the buck and fired again and he went down. I fired a third shot at the doe as she made for a fenceline and she went down.
That was 3 shots and 3 hits in about 3sec from a surprised shooter at over 500 feet with a semi-auto .308 with open sights. I have had no professional training, and im not even really an "avid" hunter. I expect the police who are "trained" to be at least as good.
I still have a freezer full of venison to prove it because my wife wont eat deer.
So Centurian, Im calling BS.
Do you mean like this Sagnaw Michgan police firesquad?
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2012/08/16/ac-pkg-carroll-man-shot-by...
That ladies and gentlemen, was simply a Chinese firing squad. It was an execution.
Complete lack of discipline with murder the end result.
Shoot to wound is not taught. You just don't see it happen. So you have to ask, are they instructed to all open up and empty their weapons, because that is what happens in every police shooting I've seen. Is it instinct or training? Then you really should ask the question, when and where was the trial? We are suppose to be given a trial, right? Somewhere I got the idea police were suppose to bring people into the justice system, not execute them on the spot and figure it out later.
Armchair quarterbacking is easy, but emptying your mag and getting a pass is easier. Tasers anyone?
Hey 'tard, I have worked a two way range, and let me tell you ALL the BULLSHIT you just babbled about, is exactly that: BULLSHIT! Oh yeah, if you can teach stick with that, because you trying to impart pearls of wisdom in regards to the shooting disciplines does NOT work. Stick with the soft intellectual disciplines.
ZH reported a few weeks back that they have stocked up enough bullets to be used on every man. woman and kid in this country. Now I know the way they use them.
Sounds like they understocked!
Redneck vs. O'Bama Army kill ratio: 500:1
The one guy was reloading.
And one of the inocent shooting victims yelled out "i'm rich bitch"
I'm not for strict gun control but arming citizens on the streets of NY would not have made this any better. There were half a dozen armed cops within a block of the incident. They were "trained" to deal with this situation and still caused 9 innocent casualties. How would a handful of untrained folks packing a gun with Starbucks in one hand on their way to the office have handled this any better? Perhaps by raising the casualty count to 15 or 20? And arming the victim would have just meant that he would have died with a bullet in his head and a gun in his holster. Don't get your favorite action movie scene confused with how it would go down in real life.
Your concern is completely justified. And I wonder how, exactly, the police would be able to discern the bad guy(s) from the good guys when several people are brandishing (let alone shooting) guns?
Not a concern. Here's why: a typical shooting is over in 30 seconds. Since the cops typically take at least 3 minutes to arrive on scene, by the time they get there, the bad guy(s) will be either dead or gone, and the good guys will cheerfully comply with the officer's demands to drop their weapons and get down on the ground.
Don't forget: when everyone has a gun, the good guys will always outnumber the bad guys 100:1.
the good guys will cheerfully comply
Only if they're not dead or incapacitated. Dead men can't put their hands on their heads.
It does not appear that they were trained to deal with this situation.
Reassign them to the Mayor's office.
They were supposed to have been trained, but it appears that the union had to bus them over to protest somewhere on the assigned training day. Oops! Time for a blue ribbon commission to study the scenario. Still, there might be a silver lining, but we won't know if the police have improved their shot/hit ratio (innocents count!!) without more info.
Maybe you should do a just a little bit of homework on how many crimes are stopped by armed citizens. You anti gun zealots are funny with your new meme... " don't get your favorite action movie scene..." . Tell me did you pull that from the daily kos, or from some other site where you get your talking points?
Dr., good to see we are on the same side of the meme. Was left a bit confused by your other comment.
That's right. must keep the power to control force in the hands of the government, otherwise there's no telling what the general populace will do.
After all we cannot be trusted, don't you know. We're not smart enough to know when we are being hosed. We have to trust the State, they're the only ones who know what's good for us.
My 8 year old son is even saying that the cops shouldn't have been so reckless. If a kid realizes it....
... a libtard won't.
LoL validation of intelligence by supporing evidence of an 8 year old kid's opinion.
You are a moron.
And you just proved our points.
Centurion, but we citizens to not think that the police should have any protection against negligence that a citizen cannot enjoy. Since we are held financially or criminally responsible for the consequence every single bullet, then so to should be you and yours. Your administrators get paid by us to advocate special protections for the police. We on the other hand do not have the discretionary time and capital to oppose their incremental actions toward consolidation of state power. You and your administrators regularly abuse our confidence and Constitution as if it were your right. We see that and do not approve.
Yeah, the citizenry should just shut up and allow our betters in law enforcement to protect us, no matter how many are shot for our own good by men with at best equal and often lesser weapon skill.
Let me guess, police or military lifer? I can't see any other mindset that would make someone such a blatant apologist for this kind of crap if they didn't feel themselves personally to be on the other side of that line. Either you feel yourself above the common peasantry and immune from this sort of thing because you see yourself as in that group or you're nuts.
If this wasn't so sad it would be hilarious.
NYPD - Shoot at 1 person - manage to hit 9 others, and have a MISS rate of 80% on average!
Jeez - how many rounds did they unload. Was it a war zone? Inept is an understatement.
Semi automatics with big magazines, you just keep pulling the trigger till you hit something. All you have to do is point it in the general direction of the target.
Hey Billionaire Bloomberg. Buy some shooting lessons. Dumbass.
He can purchase all of the shooting instruction he wants, but if the cops are all tied up with union work or after hours shake-downs, it'll just be more wasted government money.
One thing fo sho the city gonna get the shit sued out of them. First thing this makes me wonder is are these all vets from Iraq/Afganistan who are used to blasting in the direction of trouble without regard to the background kinda thing.. instincts is a mofo when your adrenlin is up and muscle memory takes over.
Vets are less likely than most to fire indiscriminately - they are more experienced in the use of firearms and more experienced in combat situations. Indiscriminate fire is a panic reaction and soldiers are specifically trained not to panic in combat. Soldiers who behaved like that would be next to completely useless to a military force.
Bloomberg you moron, take the cop's guns away and arm the people again. Consealed Carry Rocks!
Bloomberg is a sick bastard.
people who live in NYC will agree with me that arrogance is another name for NYPD.
As for the comments on accuracy. Here's another little fact for you kids.
When a human experiences an adrenalin rush the person loses most fine motor skills and the macro motor skills are energized. Hence why people can seem to react with speed and strength they normally can not exhibit, and why trying to do simple fine motor skill acts like writing and... shooting become very difficult.
That's also why psychotics who experience no emotion are so dangerous with a gun.
It's also why in the military it is essential to ensure the soldiers are so familiar with shooting their weapon that it is a sub-conscious act and to inspire them so their emotions can help focus their motor skills. The fact is the first engagement is the most dangerous because the adrenalin is always strongest during the first time any highly emotionally connected activity is embarked upon.
By the way. Those were beat cops. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of their experience has nothing to do with shooting. They are good men and women. But they are generally not the "hunter killer" psychotic types devoid of emotion/adrenalin effects.
If you notice, all the citizens GOT TO RUN AWAY from the danger SPECIFICALLY because the cops, WHO APPROACHED WITHOUT WEAPONS DRAWN (something I disagree with but policy requires when a suspect is not "brandishing"), DREW THEIR WEAPONS WHEN THE SUSPECT DREW HIS. A suspect who had already walked up and assassinated a citizen. NO ONE at the time knew if the guy was a psyho killer or an angry guy looking to take his anger out on specific targets.
But hey kids. Keep commenting. Not only are you showing every reader with a brain your immaturity and ignorance, but you're letting that big data center in Utah record your IP and behavioral profile.
Cheers.
+ 100 for you brother, those denigrating the 2 courageous policemen that stood in the line of fire, eat shit bitches!
another one, these trolls are all over this.....damage control bitchez
TROLL ALERT!!!
They should've just used a fucking grenade then. Works all the time.
Bullshit.
If they can't handle a weapon under stress -- when else to you need one? -- they should not be armed.
Bastiat, thanks for making clear your membership in the ignorant crowd.
Trained in weapons since I was 9--first by my dad who was a state cop for 3 years during the depression and a fed for the rest of his career, then by the Boy Scouts and the Army. I also did a turn as a small town cop. So "ignorant" is not the word you are looking for.
Centurion?
Dad?
[the crickets are deafening]
Actually, Bastiat, yes it was and thank you for proving it.
You said "If they can't handle a weapon under stress -- when else to you need one? -- they should not be armed. "
Yes, to make such and assertion is ignorant. It's ignorant because, and an army guy like yourself should know this - hence I suspect you were part of the 6:1 who support combat soldiers as opposed to being a combat soldier, that NO ONE can no a person's stress level, much less response to the stress, during an event like that, of a weapon being pointed at them by a known murderer, until the person's been there and done that.
So, your point of shouldn't be armed is filled with ignorance because application of it would mean the ONLY way of determining if a person should be armed is AFTER they've been through something like that.
Hence, you ARE ignorant.
As for your service in the Army, congrats brother. I too served. But I also know there are far too many ignorant who serve. Stereotypes don't just happen. And the "Military Intelligence" meme is not without many historical examples of fact to support it.
What's truly sad, is how the up/down count is running on the comments of people. It displays a deep and widespread ignorance of weapons and reality.
Bullshit. If they can't keep their cool under pressure, they shouldn't be armed. If an EMT can't stand mashed up, squirting bodies, and think clearly, he shouldn't be an EMT. If a cop can't respond without hysterically and recklessly spraying lead into a crowd he/she should not be armed. If the NYPD can't determine who should and should not be armed, ie. who should or should not be on the thin blue line, they have collapsed into union/bureaucratic dysfunction.
And the reason that the cops confronted the guy in the first place? These cops get a HUGE dump on for being retarded. An armed and dangerous guy in PUBLIC, and WHAT exactly did these cops think was going to happen? The guy after seeing the boys in blue was just going to shit his pants and surrender, because people show up wearing a uniform? So a uniform is now a detterant? Where are the lawyers at to tear these cops a new asshole?
Have you ever heard the phrase "eat shit and die" ?
I suspect that Centurion is a TROLL
If Centurion were not a troll, he would be an NYPD cop, one who responded to this incident and fired his entire magazine with his eyes closed
In any case, he/it is good for exposing the unconstrained autoritarian bias that appears to be characteristic of members of the police state, and that is useful here for provoking opposing thought.
Which is why any responsible legally armed individual, whether they be a peace officer or civilian, should train with regularity to develop and maintain muscle memory for handling and aiming a handgun. When the adrenalin hits the bloodstream (or sh*t hits the fan as it were), the training literally takes over. No or not enough training - FAIL.
Uncle Anus,
I bet your the kind of guy that thinks a rookie football player is a POS because he doesnt play like an 8 year pro.
Yes, you can train muscle memory. However, you are a fool to think you can train for the adrenalin of a KNOWN murderer pointing a gun at you from 8 feet away.
As I said, only the special operations community in the military gets enough gun play time to have any chance of reliably knowing how well they can be expected to perform when the SHTF.
But then again, I dont expect a lot from a guy in pigtails.
Well, I'm suitably cowed. I guess I should try to be more macho like you. That way it gets easier for you to justify feeding on us from the safety of your state backed power.
Frankly, please quit any public or private police roll. I don't want/need the psychological likes of you presuming to act with authorty and impunity under the guise of "protecting" me.
To the best of my knowledge, I have never been shot at. I have never experienced combat but was in the military and carried a sidearm and M16 on duty. I have stared down the barrel of a gun or two during a holdup. I cannot be certain how I would react under fire. No one can, not even the SpecOps guys, until it actually happens. Although, in the case of the SpecOps guys they have a pretty good idea, but there is still an element of uncertainty.
However, proper (safe) handling of a weapon, target ID, aiming and firing can become second nature (driving, riding a bike) with consistent training and skills maintenance.
As for your example, it is unreasonable for anyone to expect an inexperienced individual to perform as well as an experienced one. As a civilian, I don't have the option of someone else to pay for my training or ammunition, so it requires a commitment on my part in both time and money. I can't speak for law enforcement officers out there, but if agency budgets don't allow for sufficient training or live fire, it seems the responsible and professional thing to do is to commit their own resources to maintaining firearms skills.
What a festival of bull shit you throw. Beat cops,killer cops ...fuck the cops. I have said it before. New cops are signed up out of the military, where as tou point out that for the soldier shooting the weapon is a sub conscious act...
Well fuck that. We don't need herds of PTSD cops firing on civilians although since the NDAA none of us are civilians with rights, we're all just potential terrorists to the fuck'n cops, so they shoot first, go back to the station and hoot it up in the locker room.
How many of those cops had police records? We know that 4,000 plus Homeland Goons have records. Who sanctions this?
The cops are no longer here to "Protect and Serve", they are here to use whatever force necessary to keep us in line and the Bill of Rights be damned
You think the blue boys are going to deputize you for PR damage control here?
Sign your name, why don't ya. A concerned citizen should WANT to be ID'd by our big friendly law enforcers.
Legalize guns and fire pigs.
You can be the sheriff
Do you have any evidentiary basis to justify your association of sheriffs and pigs?
Dear Mayor Bloomturd,
Yesterday's events have finally given me an understanding as to why you have supported and banned gun ownership/carry by citizens of New York City. It is because when your "highly-trained" police force opens fire on innocent bystanders, you do not want the citizens returning fire in an effort to protect themselves.
Finally, I understand. The expense to replace "highly-trained" officers who were killed by citizens protecting themselves would be detrimental to the city's budget.
On my next trip to New York City I would love to share a Big Gulp or Slurpee with you while we discuss your anti-gun stance.
Sincerely in the Second Amendment,
Hog
Looks like Bloomberg is trying to get the guns out of the wrong hands.
+ 100
In the movie, Heat, as the cops led by Pacino are closing in on the bank robbers, led by Deniro, Pacino shouts to all the other cops to "Watch your backgrounds!" But that was only a movie so they got to take poetic license.