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What 40 Years Of Gold Confiscation By The US Government Looks Like

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The chart below, which is a time series showing the total "Gold Held by the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve" (which for all intents and purposes are interchangeable), demonstrates vividly the moment when the US government enacted Executive Order 6102, aka the "forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates within the continental United States" order which criminalized the possession of monetary gold "by any individual, partnership, association or corporation." But not the government of course. Spot the moment after which gold confiscation by the US government (also known as USD devaluation) from its citizens was legalized.

The actual April 5, 1933 order, which in the coming years will make a repeat appearance with absolute certainty, is below.

What was the point of Executive Order 6102? It was two fold.

  • First, in order to make the confiscation legitimate, the US government required the delivery of all gold coin, bullion, and certificates to be concluded by May 1, 1933 in exchange for $20.67/ounce. Several months later, the new, official gold exchange price (which however was merely the government's bid as nobody could actually buy gold at this price) became $35.00, which remained until 1971 when the last trace of the dollar's pseudo convertibility into gold was wiped out by Nixon. In effect, what FDR did was to devalue the USD by 70% overnight.
  • Second, not only did the government remove the incentive for ordinary citizens to hold gold by establishing price and criminal controls over possession, it also changed the rules in the middle of the game allowing it to build up a massive gold hoard of over 8000 tons today which is maintained at Fort Knox, and is, to the best of our knowledge, unauditable by any mere mortal. Critically, it made the US government the sole source and monopoly agent of gold purchases, using reserve fiat currency it could print with impunity, beginning in 1933 and continuing through 1974 when the limitation on gold ownership was repealed after President Gerald Ford signed a bill legalizing private ownership of gold coins, bars and certificates by an act of Congress codified in Pub.L. 93-373, which went into effect December 31, 1974. In summary, the US government, which is now the largest official holder of physical gold in the world, had 40 years of uncontested zero cost gold accumulation in which it could build a gold inventory that was second to none.

As for the process the government had in place to deal with those who refused to voluntarily hand over their gold quietly, curiously there was only one case of prosecution, which however should make it very clear that holding gold in "authorized" bank safes is about the dumbest thing one can do the next time the US government decides to devalue the dollar, and change the rules.

The circumstances of the case were that a New York attorney, Frederick Barber Campbell, had on deposit at Chase National over 5,000 troy ounces (160 kg) of gold. When Campbell attempted to withdraw the gold Chase refused and Campbell sued Chase. A federal prosecutor then indicted Campbell on the following day (September 27, 1933) for failing to surrender his gold. Ultimately, the prosecution of Campbell failed, but the authority of the federal government to seize gold was upheld, and Campbell's gold was confiscated.

The fact that the custodial bank of the 5000 ounces of gold is the bank that would subsequently become JPMorgan is not lost on us.

Finally, to those who have some gold ETF certificates in a brokerage account, which by law are the possession by DTCC's Cede & Co. - a bank owned institution - we wish the best of luck to anyone hoping to preserve of even recover any of the invested wealth in such instruments.

And remember: when in doubt, recall Bernanke's immortal words: "gold is not money."

 

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Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:10 | 2725609 hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

When  CDS for Gold Confication as  Trigger Event?

will be an interesting product

 

Hugo

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:15 | 2725620 Ray1968
Ray1968's picture

you could probably keep trading GLD afterall. There's no gold in it anyway... just dreams of gold.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:18 | 2725638 hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

GLD is a high risk product

Sponsor can have easily a Counterparty risk cos ultraleverage vs real holdings

 

Paper Gold -----and all unallocated for me has no intrinsic value

 

Just Physical worths 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:42 | 2725686 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Well, the PM's I had are not at risk of being confiscated, as the boating accident where I lost them all still haunts me.  Lucky to swim to shore and still be alive.

So now I use only crisp Federal Reserve Notes, backed by the full faith and credit of our fine Treasury Department.  I noticed that when the few FRN's in my wallet got wet from the accident, all I had to do was dry them out, and PRESTO - wealth preserved!  Not sure my PM's did as well being under water and all.  </MPD>

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:42 | 2725698 RestoreOurFuture
RestoreOurFuture's picture

 

 

Did you contact your insurance?  I'd be curious if they reimbursed you....

Romney/Ryan 2012

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:47 | 2725708 koaj
koaj's picture

Urine idiot

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:51 | 2725717 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

 

@ ROF

Did you find my comment logical?  If so, I'd be curious to know which institution you're in....

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:51 | 2725722 koaj
koaj's picture

i posted in reply to the Romney/Ryan troll; not you. I liked your comment very much

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:00 | 2725741 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

ya, I know.  No worries.  I replied to to ROF and put it under you because I didn't want to be pushed down the page.

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:15 | 2725786 macholatte
macholatte's picture

 

 

Re: PM Insurance Claim

 

This actually did happen to me once about 10 years ago. I made a claim after a burglary and the insurance company paid me face value for the coins I claimed, not market value. So I got one dollar per silver dollar. Maybe the only way to insure PM's is to get a special rider which I did not have.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:51 | 2725880 12ToothAssassin
12ToothAssassin's picture

You probably have to register your PMs with the gubmint first

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:37 | 2726264 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Get them appraised lol

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 03:22 | 2726451 reload
reload's picture

Here in the UK the Government are made aware of what people have insured by the insurance companies. We have a 16% tax on insurance premiums which enables the government to feel entitled to the info. But its really about keeping tabs on the `citizens` and making sure nobody who might feel inclined not to pay inheritance tax/death duties on property can insure said property at all. My home insurance carries cover for up to £5k of precious metals excluding jewelery, it is a feature of the policy that I did not choose. Presumably if I were to claim, reciepts would be required. Anybody insuring a bigger/specific quantity might as well put it in a bank vault.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:19 | 2726533 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Gold IS the insurance.  If you want to Re-insure it, you should use other "means" and not coverage payable in fiat

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:37 | 2726556 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

RestoreOurFuture


Vote up!

11

Vote down!

-102

 

 

Did you contact your insurance? I'd be curious if they reimbursed you....

Romney/Ryan 2012

 

You are the problem.....I don't want you to restore anything......just go away.

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:53 | 2725886 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

I don't think you can insure PM's in your home, or guns for that matter.  I think there is a small amount that you can, but you can't have a million dollars worth of silver in the safe in your basement and insure it.  Probably because there are too many boating accidents.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:04 | 2726183 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

PM's;  I don't know.  I lost all of mine in a boating accident.

Guns; most definitely.  You have to provide the serial number and depending on their worth, get an independent appraisal of the value.  And it is specifically listed on your homeowners policy as a seperately insured item.  Very much like insuring a wedding ring or other high-value jewelry.  If you have a high deductible (>$1,000), only special rigs are worth the trouble.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:40 | 2726267 Mike7.62
Mike7.62's picture

You can insure firearms through the NRA without providing serial numbers etc. Only if they are over $1500 in value do you have to specify what type thay are, and still do not have to provide serial numbers. At one time I had some firearms insured with USAA, but they did require SN's. When I learned of the NRA program, I cnx'd the USAA policy rider and went with the NRA.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:56 | 2726290 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Difference is...., USAA would actually pay you. Good luck with that NRA policy.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:05 | 2725918 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

 

don't display PMs in living room.

 

go buy a safe.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:34 | 2727973 Intoxicologist
Intoxicologist's picture

You have to schedule them onto your policy; itemized and with a stated value, and probably provide photos.  If their value goes up from what's stated on your policy, you'd have to contact your carrier to have the value increased, for which you'd be charged accordingly.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:51 | 2725878 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Now, now...don't get pissy about it. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:40 | 2725999 tiger7905
tiger7905's picture

Great presentation by Nick Holland of Goldfields on what gold stock investors want.

http://goldandsilverlinings.com/?p=2063

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:48 | 2725710 Aziz
Aziz's picture

LOL MDB is that you??

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:48 | 2725866 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

MDB has Troll Fu...this guy is getting RickRolled on 'I (heart) Romney' links...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:50 | 2725718 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You conducting an audit?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:07 | 2725761 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Hmm, lay off the crack.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:37 | 2725840 markar
markar's picture

Good lord, what the hell are you doing here?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 01:07 | 2726353 Barack Obama
Barack Obama's picture

If these down votes are any reflection of the poles then this election is in the bag.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 04:32 | 2726406 Daily Bail
Daily Bail's picture

For anyone who missed this live. 

Great f-ing clip from yesterday.

Lawyer James Koutoulas Tells Rick Santelli: 'We Plan To Pursue Criminal Charges Against Jon Corzine In All 50 States'

Best quotes from Koutoulas:

"Crimes were unequivocally committed and I will do whatever I can to continue to do the government’s job for it and help see justice done."

"MF Global had a choice.  Do we cheat or go out of business.  And they cheated.  They broke the law.  And these took these customer funds to cover margin calls."

"Attorney General Eric Holder's Department of Justice is the biggest enabler of financial crime in U.S. history."

And the kill shot:

"I will take this to all 50 states.  And we will win.  We will get a conviction of Jon Corzine.  And the next time a sociopath CEO says 'Do I go out of business or do I cheat,' he's gonna think about President Obama's biggest fundraiser in an orange jumpsuit in state prison."

Lawyer James Koutoulas Tells Rick Santelli: 'We Plan To Pursue Criminal Charges Against Jon Corzine In All 50 States'

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 05:25 | 2726503 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

 

 

I've news for Koutouas: You do NOT own the money on a segregated account, de bank does.

jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/08/this-is-interesting-discussion-on.html

Good luck to y'all in the US: only now I understand why you find gun ownership so important.

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:33 | 2725833 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

if GLD gets shut down then ALL gold will be dead -- you will have to clear out of America. I doubt in the digital age they will try and confiscate gold as per above -- they can destory the planet in many other ways and in the end when CNTRL +P won't work the missiles and destroyers will. No need to worry about barbaric relics when you can blow shit up like never before....

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:49 | 2725871 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

VD - if GLD gets shut down then ALL gold will be dead

So not true.  Try explaining that to China for example.

[I'm not trying to antagonize you, but I just want to point out that your initials are ... VD.  What are you channeling?]

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:58 | 2725897 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

i meant in USA as i explicitly stated. GOLD in States. My initials only prove that you are thinking what you are thinking.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:08 | 2725928 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

or you are thinking what you are thinking.  You didn't say GOLD in States as far as I can see, but no worries.

I dragged this up here from down thread to show you someone else undertands.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/what-30-years-gold-confiscation-us-governm...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:18 | 2725934 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

thx for enlightening me ;) when shit hits fans ETFs will be least of your worries, and most likely even your physical. only thing people will trade is food for food and bullets for bullets. you can't eat gold during apacolypse so SLV is just fine if you don't want to subvert system sooner with physical holdings.

 

VD over and out. 

 

yes the person with a little extra food that is about to go rancid will trade you for some gold leveraged to the hilt as your oz = not much more in rice and beans and bits of putrid decaying green meat.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:38 | 2725997 tbone654
tbone654's picture

in Bosnia, the most valuable thing seemed to be disposable (actually refillable) lighters, as small units of energy were much more easily used to barter...  If you had too much energy in sight of others, such as an LP tank, you were soon dead...  Bosnia might actually be a good model to study... or at least be aware...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:39 | 2726144 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

exactly. and what was more valuable at that stage of the game: a lighter or a piece of yellow metal? 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:42 | 2726270 Spider
Spider's picture

That's silly - of course gold will be tradable as will silver.  Even under a barter system due to a collapse in the financial system, gold/silver will be much more desirable than food for trading ... you cant eat gold but that's not the purpose of good money.

Think of it this way - when you're trying to barter for imported goods (think oil/REEs/commodities) you wont be able to use food - good luck convincing the Saudis you want to trade their 1 million barrels of oil for a bunch of corn.  I think i'll be easily able to outbid you with my gold/silver and make the sale.

And yeah even in a financial collapse there will still be international trade even if it diminishes...

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:18 | 2726531 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

I find this video so sad that I will supress the snark and invective that I would normally unleash at this time. Pay attention, "vast-dom".

Gold for Bread - Zimbabwe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 08:22 | 2726701 ZeroPoint
ZeroPoint's picture

i don't see it happening. Only 2% of investors hold physical. Everyone else holds paper or is flat ass broke. The rich aren't going to tolerate their gold confiscated.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:19 | 2725626 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

The U.S. government could really do a solid by minting quite a few gold rounds, preferably with $50 and $100 face values, containing anywhere from an ounce to two ounces of .99% precious, and sell it for face value to the American Public while allowing for it to be legally used to pay all debt, public and private.

I wonder what The Bernank & Gang would have to say, via tortured and contradictory analysis presented by way of PowerPoint, about such barbaric* currency circulating and competing with their far more refined, advanced Federal Reserve Notes...

Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom (1966)

"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard."


*bar·bar·ic/bär?barik/ 

Adjective:
  1. Savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal.
  2. Primitive; unsophisticated.
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:53 | 2725888 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

A pure gold coin is too soft for circulation.

... add 10% copper.

Krugerrands forever!

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:43 | 2726272 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Explain the Buffalo and all Canadian coins...all .9999 and some .99999

soft yes ...too soft? apparently not

fofoa has a take on confiscation that I believe is more likely than the paranoid ideas tossed about so freely here at ZH.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 02:27 | 2726412 Isotope
Isotope's picture

I don't think those coins circulate. People buy them and keep them locked up. The average one might change hands every 3-5 years, likely less frequently than that.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:29 | 2725648 RestoreOurFuture
RestoreOurFuture's picture

 

 

On the topic of gold confiscation, are you guys aware that Paul Ryan credits Ayn Rand as the single most influencial person in his study of economics? In 2005, he said:  

The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand

In this sense, he's no different than Ron Paul - maybe this is why Rand Paul and many other libertarians strongly endorsed the Romney ticket! It probably isn't surprising that Mr Ryan is an advocate of pegging the US dollar to a basket of commodities. While the gold standard has many flaws in our current multi-trillion dollar economy, a basket of commodities washes out all the risk. This would be a perfect solution that would prevent the Democrats from continuing their policy of dollar destruction and bailouts for everyone.  And besides, have you seen the price of corn and soybeans lately? Imagine how valuable the US dollar would be if pegged to these skyrocketing commodities!

Your vote matters!

Romney/Ryan 2012

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:30 | 2725666 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Perhaps the previous messages sent by many members of this community in response to your earlier, inane posts, were a bit too nuanced. So, let me summarize in a concise manner:

Piss off!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:52 | 2726283 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

tinky

not all ZH posters are completel all  in on hopeless 'we can never overcome our alien slave masters'.

Romney and Paul are preferable to Obama and Biden PERIOD. In any European country Obama would be a Communist, here in the USA with our long history of anti-communism and cold war it is almost like calling someone guilty of treason to call them a commie....but the O/B ticket and most Dems have a very Communist outlook. So the few adults here at ZH who do not have the luxury of pissing on anyone who who is still fighting the fight are right to support them. Whether the lesser of 2 evils or a new hope...we shall see. The next president will oversee the default of the dollar so I don't envy them. But I'll take my chances with the Rs....and NO they are not the same.

Yes I know that 85% of ZH readers will say thumbs down but I think I owe it to the crowd to speak out.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 00:44 | 2726339 dwayne elizando
dwayne elizando's picture

Due to the electoral college being the true POTUS deciders I refuse to vote. As a matter of fact I would rather bet on the outcome than waste time and energy going to the ballots for the popular vote.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:12 | 2726856 lightning
lightning's picture

You do not understand the electoral college.  It was specifically designed by the founders to protect the voting process.  They realized that in a purer democracy, voting fraud and manipulation can occur.  They designed the college to ensure that every state had an equal say in who was president and not be at the mercy of states like California.  I think your true complaint should be with the current political parties and who funds them.  The financial interests behind the two parties (who are the same mind you) decide who is president by picking who they want on each side and then presenting a false "free choice" to the american public.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 04:30 | 2726476 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

If the system is going to crash anyway, then let it crash under Obama. Let him be responsible for his own mess. Voting for the lesser of two evils means perpetuating the two party system. Maybe that is the true problem, and maybe we should vote for the third party for REAL solutions.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:29 | 2726544 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

"lesser of two evils" = lol. Evil is still evil, in this election you only get a choice of color.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:03 | 2726522 Acet
Acet's picture

I'm afraid that as seen from Europe both American parties are right-wing since they both put big-corp interests above those of individuals and small enterprises. I'm also afraid that there aren't and never were any real communists: all the attempts at communism got stuck at the Dictatorship of the Proletariat stage - it seems that even ideological revolutionaires aiming for universal economic equality always end up stuck at the stage when they have to give up the tyranical power they accumulated as part of the process of remaking society (surprise, surprise!).

Even more interesting, it seems most Americans wish for a society which is more equal than Sweden (article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19284017). It seems that as long as no political "tags" are mentioned, what most Americans describe as the kind of society they really wish is more equalitarian than any society on Earth. It also seems that most Americans have absolutelly no clue on just how extremelly economically unbalanced their own society is.

Cynical people like me might think that the real function of both main political parties in the US is to confused the plebes, given them some loud (gotta be loud, LOUD IS RIGHT!), emotionally-charged and bullshit ideologic words and ritualistic-symbols for them to attach to in unthinking, clubist fashion and muddle up the waters with fake so so as to prevent the country from becoming more like what most Americans want.

Or maybe most Americans are just Communists at heart ... /double sarc

 

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:31 | 2726545 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Yeah, Sweden. That's the ticket. Replace that Norwegian border with Mexico or an African nation and see how well the socialist paradise holds up. But then I agree, "most Americans" haven't a clue about their own history, so their desires are either assigned to them in factory skoolz or spring fully formed from their nether regions.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:33 | 2725672 honestann
honestann's picture

Anyone who votes for these clowns (or the other clowns) is either terminally insane or terminally corrupt.  Either way, not good.

PS:  And it has absolutely nothing to do with Ayn Rand either.  Please remember, Alan Greenspasm was another predators who dropped that name.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:38 | 2725684 RestoreOurFuture
RestoreOurFuture's picture

 

 

The only reason you feel so disenchanted is because of our country's demise under Obama.  Our country desperately needs a change, and it's up to you guys to make it happen.  Tell everyone!

Romney/Ryan 2012

By the way, Ayn Rand hasn't had anything to do with our politics, and THAT'S the problem!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:47 | 2725703 El
El's picture

Romney and Ryan are all for the indefinite detention of American citizens without charge or trial. They were all for the Patriot Act. Romney gave us Obamacare just as much as Obama did. They are all for big government, intrusive regulation, blah, blah, blah. Obama was a continuation of Bush and if elected, Romney will be a continuation of Obama.

I can't help but wonder when I run across someone who preaches making a choice between the Repugs and Demoscats if they have ever bothered to see what their candidates have supported and if so, how they can possibly justify supporting either of our current presidential candidates. I've narrowed it down to evil or clueless.

El (former lifetime member of the Repugnant party...I am SO sorry!)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:05 | 2726072 deeznutz
deeznutz's picture

People vote becasue it makes THEM, personally feel better about this fucked up country, that is all. They are also unaware of this fact. It is an emotional thing for most, and a waste of time.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 03:54 | 2726463 Nozza
Nozza's picture

Uh oh. It looks like another Mr Spock is on the block.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:25 | 2726893 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

'Spock, with a beard?' -- Capt. Kirk, "Mirror, mirror" :>D

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:55 | 2726286 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

If the r/R  ticket betrays it will be the end of the Party. TEAs will form their own and that will mean Rs will never win another national office. Bush was that last insult many of us will tolerate.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:47 | 2728025 El
El's picture

Don't you get it? They have already betrayed. How can you ignore their support of loss of liberty and pretend it is otherwise? How can you look at their records and say, "oh, but this time will be different"? It won't be different. Don't take my word for it. You can go on YouTube and see their betrayal coming out of their own mouths. ::: sighs :::

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:25 | 2726539 autonomos
autonomos's picture

IMO restoreOurFuture is a fake troll. His posts are just too obvioulsy dumb. Just like MDB

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 08:57 | 2726803 oldschool
oldschool's picture

I agree with your sentiment regarding the nominally two-party system, but have come to a different conclusion regarding the need to choose between the Ds and the Rs.  Choosing the lesser of two evils is, as another poster observed, still choosing an evil; but it is also choosing to diminish evil.  That is the point of the aphorism.  One could only diminish evil more by witholding a vote if doing so actually led to a non-evil alternative arising.  I have yet to hear any plausible explanation of how that would work.  The doom-porn mantra of "let it all crash" may feel cathartic, but I see no logic in it relative to voting.  

Nor does third party support work, for nuerous reasons, many of which are reasonably outlined here: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_third_parties_so_often_fail_in_American....

In the end, I think we have to make the best of a bad situation, because that's all we'll ever have in this world.  

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:47 | 2725709 _SILENCER
_SILENCER's picture

You're in a severe reality coma, man.  A bad case of Stockholm Syndrome to boot. The pirate syndicate needs to be introduced to the Guillotine Faction.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:52 | 2725725 Likstane
Likstane's picture

There are only 2 reasons you post that bullshit here(Ok-only 2 I can think of)

1.paid troll for GOP/Robney

2. you actually believe it(very far-fetched)

Either way, I'd like to invite you to FSO!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:55 | 2725732 jomama
jomama's picture

3. incredibly lonely and desperate for attention

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:38 | 2725775 BigJim
BigJim's picture

I don't know... I'm beginning to kind of like 'RestoreOurFuture', he's a bit like MDB but on steroids... and even drier!

Not sure I can handle reading more than three of his posts in a row without vomiting, however.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:39 | 2725846 Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture

He is MDB's mirror image.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:00 | 2725743 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"paid troll for GOP/Robney"

More likely an Orgasm on America bot.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:08 | 2725763 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

I thought it was funny..

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:16 | 2725790 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So did I...but I still down voted it ;-)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:06 | 2725921 Debt-Is-Not-Money
Debt-Is-Not-Money's picture

"Our country desperately needs a change,"

"Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason."

Anon

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:19 | 2725946 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"Our country desperately needs a change. . ."

That hope and change is sooooo 2008.   Can't you lying swine think of something a bit more original this time?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:37 | 2725992 nmewn
nmewn's picture

hope and chains?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:00 | 2726199 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

dope and pains

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 00:39 | 2726334 prains
prains's picture

mope and mange

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 02:59 | 2726434 Likstane
Likstane's picture

soap and stains?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 01:23 | 2726368 Pubcoceo
Pubcoceo's picture

I'm voting Sheen/Lohan 2012

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 00:46 | 2726342 Barack Obama
Barack Obama's picture

Change has come to America. The people will no longer accept the old politics as usual. The people want openess, fairness, honesty. Why Mit will not release his tax returns, I do not know. What has Mit got to hide? This is how I will bring jobs when elected for a second term, to finish the the job you elected me for. I vowed not run for a second term unless I could demonstrate to you that I have kept my promise. But the Republicans continue with same old partisan politics, blocking the necessary reforms neeed to create more jobs. We have a long way to. Let's get there together.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 05:16 | 2726495 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Forward, bitchez.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 07:42 | 2726608 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Why Mit will not release his tax returns, I do not know. What has Mit got to hide?

Probably for the same reason BO wont release his college transcripts, no?  Peas in a pod.  Or the pot(head) calling the kettle black.  That's rich.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 01:33 | 2726377 ersatzteil
ersatzteil's picture

Besides the influence on Rush's 2112 album, I doubt you'll find a lot of people here who care about Ayn Rand's philosophy as espoused by Ryan. As to the Romney/Ryan change, jumping out of a plane over Iran while being fired upon at the tender age of 25 isn't very appealing to me.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:53 | 2725719 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"PS:  And it has absolutely nothing to do with Ayn Rand either.  Please remember, Alan Greenspasm was another predators who dropped that name."

How coincidental that every single high profile person who is a self-proclaimed Randist turns out to be nothing more than a self-interested whore who does whatever benefits him personally, whether it is growing government or imposing tyranny or taking away reproduction rights or debasing the dollar or creating asset bubbles or anything else that is supposedly anti-Rand.   Who could have predicted that?  P.S.  Don't give the bullshit argument that they are not true disciples.   Greenspan fucking hung out with her.  If you step away from your ideology for a moment, you'll see there is a very simple explanation and it ain't that they were faking it.  

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:16 | 2725782 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Dipshit: where, oh where, did Ayn Rand ever advocate giving the government, or a quasi-governmental institution like the Fed, control over the money supply?

You are either a troll or dumb beyond belief.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:19 | 2725791 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Randtard -- where, oh where,  and who, oh who did Alan Greenspan worship for decades?  Wake up and smell Rand in practice.  Her doctrine of glorified selfishness attracts exactly this type and actions speak louder than sophomoric simplistic ideological words.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:32 | 2725829 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

That's all you have? Alan Greenspan? LOL. You say some of the most stupid fucking things I've ever read here at ZH, and that's saying something.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:45 | 2725839 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

So I have the architect of the economic crisis who was one of Rand's closest allies, and also the current candidate for Vice President on the Red Team ticket as two perfect examples of my viewpoint, and you say "whatever."  And you offer no counter-point of substance because you cannot, but it doesn't bother you that you cannot.  True believer I see.  Enjoy the cult.  

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:53 | 2725883 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

You've been answered on this point numerous times before and yet you still push your false arguments and statist agenda.

I will now shun you troll.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:00 | 2725905 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Don't throw me in the briar patch, cultist.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:39 | 2725998 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

You're far more hung up on Rand than anyone else here.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:49 | 2726018 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

The likely next fucking Vice President of the United States says she is the reason he went into politics.  Greenspan was her disciple.  Half of the Republicans in office openly praise her.  It is hard to find a Republican in office who doesn't claim that she is at least an inspiration.  So I call it out whenever I see some cult member as above try to defend her religion.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:00 | 2726037 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

So in your opinion if someone reads a book and finds some value in it they are members of a cult?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:02 | 2726058 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

It's pretty easy to spot those who belong to her cult.  Reading her books does not qualify.  Making silly arguments that Greenspan was a RINO (Randist in Name Only) is a dead give away.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:07 | 2726077 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

But Greenspan did act in direct opposition to Rand's philosophy on sound money. Isn't that so?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:21 | 2726106 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Of course I agree that he acted in direct opposing to Rand's philosophy of sound money, as do virtually all of her followers who exist in power.  So is your point that she has great theories that are never practiced even by her closest allies because the over-riding command of perceived self-interest and expediency trumps everything else in practice?  Great movement, there.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:30 | 2726128 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

Of course I agree that he acted in direct opposing to Rand's philosophy of sound money,

 

So you admit that Greenspan was a follower of Rand in name only. Two posts up you claimed that anyone who recognized that fact was a Rand cultist.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:42 | 2726154 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

He can't even keep his own gibberish straight. LOL.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 02:58 | 2726431 akak
akak's picture

Everything bad in the world is the fault of the Ayn Rand Citizenism citizens, whose evil nature is eternal.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 05:19 | 2726499 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

fucken roadside shittin Rand Citizenism citizens.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 05:39 | 2726508 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

They're blobbing up.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:48 | 2727783 akak
akak's picture

 

 

Make me laugh!

Typical Ayn Rand Citizenism citizen reactions, forcing blame to the exterior, seeking symmetry in blobbing-uppityness, and monolizing the speeching means.

But in Ayn Rand Citizenism, A is A, so ....

 

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 00:30 | 2726324 Bear
Bear's picture

Greenspan advocated zero oversight ... under Greenspan we got a derivatives market that will collapse the western world ... under Greenspan we got ZIRP (though above zero) with led to housing crash. Greenspan was the worst enemy of America since 1913 (or maybe Wilson??)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:04 | 2726070 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I don't get ther whole "cult" thing he is peddling either.

He needs a padded cell if he thinks Rand would support and defend anything Romney and Ryan stand for. Patriot Act? Endless war? NDAA? LOL...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:22 | 2726109 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Let me spell it out for you because you are obviously slow.  Rand's followers who attain power act in their perceived self-interest, as can be expected from a philosophy which exalts selfishness.  In the process, they generally ignore the other details of her philosophy.  In other words, it is a hollow philosophy that does not work in practice, and that ultimately does nothing more than justify the selfish acts of narcissists.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:45 | 2726156 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

John Galt's pledge not only affirms one's right to determine the course of one's own actions but recognizes that others have the same right. You miss the explicit reciprocity in this philosophy. Isn't it far more selfish to presume to rule over others rather than to let them determine their own path?

 

"I pledge by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

 

I'm not sure why you believe that I should not recognize the right of self determination just because Greenspan went off the track. Do you only read books which have not been read by other people with human failings?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:33 | 2726256 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

"Rand's followers who attain power act in their perceived self-interest, as can be expected from a philosophy which exalts selfishness" actually this can be expected from reality, as shown by sports, politics, economics, religion, game theory, evolutionary psychology, and watching kids at play.

If you are referring to the real world and not the books, you are, unsurprisingly, seeing what you want to see and nothing else. Show me one real-world "Randian" who has achieved any level of political power anywhere in the world and I'll show you a contradiction in terms. This is akin to judging all Christians based on the actions of the Popes - obviously they're all rich beyond belief and celibate right? You are cherry-picking examples of people who may claim to be "Randian" in a very non-"Randian" world, but who are, I'm afraid, not. If I call you a radical ecofeminist, does that make you one? If you call yourself a radical ecofeminist, does that make you one?

Did narcissists lack abundant means of self-justification (religious, philosophical, and political) in the time before Ayn Rand?

I've never called my a Randian and I never will because, quite simply, I'm not, but I'll take Randians - self-proclaimed or otherwise - over socialists, communists, Marxists, Marxians, Maoists, Leninists, Stalinists, Republicans, Democrats, Nazis, fascists, Islamists*, Zapatistas, monarchists, neocons, neolibs, royalists, federalists, Taliban, democratists, and every other type of statist any day.

*Anarchist Islam(ism) is unfortunately a contradiction in terms (in case anyone cares)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:28 | 2725965 peekcrackers
peekcrackers's picture

"You always have to ask the question why is it that central banks hold so much gold which earns them no interest and which costs them money to store. "The answer is obvious: they consider it of significant value, and indeed they consider it the ultimate means of payment, one which does not require any form of endorsement.”
“Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the ‘hidden’ confiscation of wealth.
Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights.”

Alan Greenspan


Wed, 08/22/2012 - 04:47 | 2726481 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

So I have the architect of the economic crisis who was one of Rand's closest allies...

 

Seriously? You can't see that he changed and betrayed the principles he once believed in? And you blame Rand for that? What's wrong with you?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 07:51 | 2726611 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

So I have the architect of the economic crisis who was one of Rand's closest allies, and also the current candidate for Vice President on the Red Team ticket as two perfect examples of my viewpoint, and you say "whatever." And you offer no counter-point of substance because you cannot, but it doesn't bother you that you cannot. True believer I see. Enjoy the cult.

Man, that takes talent:  To get so many logical errors in one paragraph, you're a stud.  Guilt by association, tu quoque, and the coup de grace to finish up w/a gratuitous ad hominem.  Well done.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:35 | 2725836 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Might as well cite a convert to Satanism as a typical Christian.

Greenspan betrayed Rand and her ideology.  The only potential excuse was that he thought he was some sort of Fransisco d'Anconia speeding the destruction of the system.

Christ, you are so fucking stupid, IF you are sincere.  As I doubt that anyone could be that stupid (so stupid to conflate an action with its exact opposite), I think you are a filthy liar.

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:41 | 2725849 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

And you are a fucking cultist who cannot see what is right in front of his face.  How convenient that when those who espouse and even embody an ideology attain power and behave exactly as those who see through Rand's bullshit cult of selfishness predict (e.g., they do what benefits them and what is convenient, and throw all the sophomoric simplistic ideology to the curb), you call it betrayal.  I call it exactly what is to be expected from anyone who worships Rand.    There is a reason they call it "blind ideology."   

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:01 | 2725909 nmewn
nmewn's picture

With my limited keyboard capacity (copying and pasting H's & g's here) please explain what is more selfish...those who steal through government wut is not theirs or those who try to keep from being stolen from?

Reply with H's & g's (small cap & large), per the government mandate ;-)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:08 | 2725926 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

What is most selfish is Rand worshipers who attain power.  They go to public school, then they seek to deny it to others.  They use all of the benefits of society, but they don't want to pay for it.  They get into government and they become militarists and cental planners.  They do everything they claim they despise because of ... wait for it ... self-interest.  The whole religion is just a cover for narcissistic and sociopathic behavior.  The proof is there for all to see.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:20 | 2725947 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You failed to follow reg's, I told you I'm Handicapped by my keyboard...go to the end of the line & try again.

>>>Reply with H's & g's (small cap & large), per the government mandate.<<<

It's easy.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:22 | 2725952 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Oh right, because I see Rand for the vacuous narcissist she is, I am in favor of government mandating keyboard usage.  If you throw in a few more bold letters and parentheses, you'll achieve the perfect nmewn post.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:34 | 2725985 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Why do you hate the handicapped?

I told you my keyboard's fucked up...this isn't very good government service, I'm serious, its my keyboard.

You need to do this for me ;-)

>>>Reply with H's & g's (small cap & large), per the government mandate.<<<

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:41 | 2726002 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I thought it was freedom that I hated.  I can't keep your mindless statements straight anymore.  

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:54 | 2726024 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You're not willin_ to _elp me?

I'm tired of copy & pastin_ too.

/////////////////

PS...I _ave a new one on t_e way...t_at I bou__t wit_ my own money, wit_out _overnment _elp. I did t_at ;-)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:56 | 2726038 monad
monad's picture

I have not actual thought about Ayn Rand. Ever. She could have been alot of things I don't care for. However I have given her ideas a great deal of thought, and find them to be flawlessly accurate, like laws of physics. Believe it or not, the ground is still going to provide you with an elastic collision experience at t*10m/s^2. Believe it or not, noone is going to look after your interests and protect, invest and save your wealth better than you.

Your ad hominem pretense is not a valid argument. Try again. This time, use logic.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:13 | 2726069 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

If you bothered to read the sequence of posts, you would see that virtually every Rand supporter who I've offended by challenging their belief system has attacked me personally.  It is telling that you call me out for ad hominen attacks, but ignore and in fact implicitly support theirs.  Hidden agenda much?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:15 | 2726096 monad
monad's picture

Ah, I see. They pick on you, so you stoop to kick 'em where it hurts. Turn about is fair play? If you don't react to the button pushers they get no traction. If you present a rational argument you leave a statement that rational people will agree with... later. This post is going to be here for a while and be studied by gubmint tools from all over the world for a long, long time. We are under the microscope.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:29 | 2725957 BigJim
BigJim's picture

  What is most selfish is Rand worshipers who attain power.  They go to public school, then they seek to deny it to others.

So, let's see - their parents were obliged (at gunpoint) to pay taxes to send them to public schools, but they shouldn't have sent them there (despite the fact that, having had so much money confiscated by your beloved State, they couldn't afford to educate them privately)? And they want to impose a user-pays system, which means that they themselves will have to pay for their own children's education? This is selfish how?

 They use all of the benefits of society, but they don't want to pay for it.

And here you conflate 'society' with government. In a more 'Randian' world, how would they use 'the benefits of society' if they hadn't created value to exchange voluntarily with others? They are only able to 'use the benefits of society' precisely because your girlfriends in power have enabled them to, by the publicly-paid provision of private goods.

  They get into government and they become militarists and cental planners. 

Ah, you mean once they get into power, they behave just like socialists explicitly say they'll behave?

  They do everything they claim they despise because of ... wait for it ... self-interest. 

Hmm, so, once the people who are attracted enough to State power (the very antithesis of the voluntarism Rand advocated, remember) that they slime their way to achieve it, they act exactly as such sociopaths have behaved... throughout history?

So, this Rand-worship... it's eternal in nature, a bit like US Citizenism? Have you met our friend AnAnonymous? I think you'd get along famously.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:32 | 2725980 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I see you are a believer in the fairy tale of free markets where oligarchs and gangsters will behave and anarchy will not rule among the starving poor.  There will always be someone's gun pointed at the heads of the non-sociopaths.  I prefer elected government.  As others have noted here before, it is amazing how all of these self-starting self-sufficient libertarians exist but have never, ever, in all of human history created their perfect society on earth.  Some might suggest that this is pretty solid proof that it is nothing more than a brilliant theory that is routinely slayed by facts and reality.  Greenspan and Ryan are perfect examples.  Once they taste power, they become everything their philosophy claims to be against.  Human nature that seems to escape the notice of those with your philosophy.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:44 | 2726008 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

There will always be someone's gun pointed at the heads of the non-sociopaths. 

 

We are men not animals. Stop trying to live by the law of the jungle and act like a human being.

 

.  As others have noted here before, it is amazing how all of these self-starting self-sufficient libertarians exist but have never, ever, in all of human history created their perfect society on earth.

 

But it is the statists who try to build perfect societies. As usual you project your own failings onto those with whom you disagree.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:50 | 2726028 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Nice puking of platitudes.  Nothing original or substantive to say?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:57 | 2726039 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

 

There's a fellow named LetThemEatRand,

Whose crab's never fresh, always canned.

You can read on the back,

It contains not one fact,

And the flavor's consistently bland.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 03:05 | 2726439 Likstane
Likstane's picture

Fights over people-enough-enough!  Judge Likstane can't let this pummeling continue.  Somebody call a medic!!!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:39 | 2726266 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Rand is a dyed-in-the-wool Hobbesian, what you profess is totally anathema to the core of his political and economic beliefs, it is as if you are telling a physicist that the atom does not exist in any way, shape, or form and that electromagnetism is a myth.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:09 | 2727073 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Haha, you always jump the shark at some point, don't you troll?

 I see you are a believer in the fairy tale of free markets where oligarchs and gangsters will behave and anarchy will not rule among the starving poor.  There will always be someone's gun pointed at the heads of the non-sociopaths.  I prefer elected government. 

No one here has proposed no government, and, to my understanding, Rand herself wanted a 'night-watchman' state. The best way of preventing this rump government from becoming an oligarchic predator is to have it democratically elected.. and the best way way to ensure it will become an oligarchic predator is to allow it to bribe the electorate with other people's (and peoples') goodies. So it has to be strictly limited, and when it starts overstepping the line it has to be brought back to heel by its enlightened citizens - ideally through elections, but through force of arms if not.

Unfortunately, our citizens are so dumbed down and debased by the very encroachments of state power that you so persistently (and apparently unthinkingly) advocate - such as state schooling - that the vast majority of our fellow citizens are completely unable to carry out an informed debate on the proper (by which I mean, most sustainable, least damaging, and most constructive) role the government should play. They are unacquanted - as apparently, are you - with such notions as the distinction between public (ie, non-excludable) vs private goods.

...As others have noted here before, it is amazing how all of these self-starting self-sufficient libertarians exist but have never, ever, in all of human history created their perfect society on earth.  Some might suggest that this is pretty solid proof that it is nothing more than a brilliant theory that is routinely slayed by facts and reality. 

I see... so... people should, for instance, give up trying to stop rape, as a rape-free society has never existed? Good thinking! I think we should all stop washing, too, as the perfectly clean person has never existed either.

  Greenspan and Ryan are perfect examples.  Once they taste power, they become everything their philosophy claims to be against.  Human nature that seems to escape the notice of those with your philosophy.

To repeat: so those who are attracted to power in the first place are *gasp* unfit to wield it??? And those who spout Rand and turn out to be aspirational sociopaths are just the same in this regard as those who spout Marx, despite the latter's 'unselfish' teachings? What a stunning observation! So I guess we'd better strictly limit the power they have when they get up there, huh, both to limit the damage they can do, and to mimimise the incentive to seize it in the first place.

Does that make sense to you, girlfriend?

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:32 | 2726254 El
El's picture

I don't worship Ayn Rand, but I'll be damned if she didn't capture the essence of our current American society in Atlas Shrugged. I don't agree with all of her philosophies, and objectivism isn't really my thing, but I agreed with about 90% of what she put forth in Atlas Shrugged. (It's the only work I've read of hers, so I can't speak to the rest.)

 

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 01:21 | 2726365 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Do I hear a "You didn't buy that gold" sentiment?

"That gold is not yours."?

"That paycheck we owe you we don't owe you because you have streets and lamp posts and police protection."?

LetThemEatRand - what do you propose, mandated public housing and work at the local McD's/WalMart for breathing "public" air?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:10 | 2725933 BigJim
BigJim's picture

  ...I call it exactly what is to be expected from anyone who worships Rand.    There is a reason they call it "blind ideology."

Girlfriend, many of us haven't even read any Rand! But we know that, by definition, if the leader of some movement espouses free markets, and then, someone who once followed that leader becomes the central planner of central planners, he cannot by definition, be following his erstwhile leader's teachings.

This is so basic, so elemental, so tautological, that I refuse to believe that even you, one of the most persistent articulators of socialist stupidities, cannot understand it.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:24 | 2725940 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

If you read Rand, you would understand.  Rand supported free markets because her daddy's business was taken over by communists.  She didn't want to pay taxes because -- well, who wants to pay taxes?  I have never met a single Rand follower who was not a flaming selfish hypocrite.  Most went to public school.  Most have no problem at all using government for their own ends.  They will take government contracts while proclaiming loudly that government should be abolished.  In short, they will do what they feel benefits them.  The real Rand philosophy is centered around self-interest, and it is clothed in this bullshit idea that it is actually good for society for everyone to act in their own interest.  So it is in society's interest not to pay taxes or fund schools, Rand says.  Greenspan was a true disciple of Rand.  He wrote parts of her books.  In practice, he was a statist who did what was useful to him because he followed the one central tenet of Rand that her followers actually believe -- what's good for number one.  Rand's follower's actions are consistently nothing more than the selfish acts of children.  They justify it with this bullshit claim that they believe in free markets and self-determination.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:46 | 2726013 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"If you read Rand, you would understand.  Rand supported free markets because her daddy's business was taken over by communists.  She didn't want to pay taxes because -- well, who wants to pay taxes?"

ROTFL!!!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:49 | 2726023 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

If Rand was wrong about the importance of living by ones own values then give some concrete examples of how you have abandoned your own values in favor of the values of others.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:53 | 2726032 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

If Rand was wrong about the importance of being a narcissist you mean?  I learned a long time ago that narcissists are literally incapable of understanding, which you support quite nicely even if unintentionally.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:59 | 2726048 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Stop weaseling. Explain why you believe that you should live by someone else's values rather than your own. Give concrete examples of how you have done so in your own life.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:10 | 2726079 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

If a person is a serial killer with no compassion or empathy and he actually enjoys killing, should he be allowed to kill at will because to deny him that God given right would require him to live by someone else's values?  How about if he just enjoyed having radioactive elements in his house?  Or what if he liked torturing animals and saw nothing wrong with it?

Living in a society requires compromises.  Some don't want to make any, and they claim their selfishness is rooted in the right to live by their own values.  They tend to be narcissists.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:24 | 2726110 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

If a person is a serial killer with no compassion or empathy and he actually enjoys killing, should he be allowed to kill at will because to deny him that God given right would require him to live by someone else's values?

 

Of course not. No one has suggested such a thing.

 

Living in a society requires compromises.

 

Of course it does. But statists don't believe in compromise do they? They believe in the power of the prison and the gun to deny any attempt at voluntary and well considered compromise.

Will you ever answer my question: Can you give some concrete examples of how you have abandoned your own values in favor of the values of others?

 

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 03:08 | 2726442 Likstane
Likstane's picture

STOP-HE'S NOT MOVING ANYMORE!!!

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:25 | 2726538 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So it must be time to subsidize LTER.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:29 | 2726127 monad
monad's picture

Paraphrasing James Madison, Thomas Jefferson & Ayn Rand, First premise: all trades are value for value with full disclosure. Second premise: force is not an option and will be met with the force necessary to neutralize the threat - permanently. So the framers, Rand & I would have no problem executing your serial killer. People who knowingly or stupidly endanger others have to go. Your examples presuppose that some people are naturally inclined to antisocial and destructive activity. I think this is true and I have no problem quarantining them, but not for profit. I also think the % of people who have this pathology would be much smaller if children weren't encouraged toward it. Take a good look at Batman; thats the modern hero? It is educational to plot the decay of the hero into the anti-hero as the ignorant masses are made even more ignorant at an accelerating rate.

Who is destroying the children? Who owns the media? These are our enemies. These are the people you should focus your energy toward exposing and confronting. Sunlight is the cure.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 00:21 | 2726314 Bear
Bear's picture

Im on Social (in)Security ... does that count

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 01:25 | 2726371 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Imagine that, self-interest and non-mandated charity.

It's like you are talking about individualism and character that could exist outside of centralized communal hegemony.

(/sarc)

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 07:58 | 2726630 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

I have never met a single Rand follower who was not a flaming selfish hypocrite.

Smple size, please?

Most went to public school. Most have no problem at all using government for their own ends.

Seeking the return (in part) of stolen property is neither immoral nor contradictory.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 22:00 | 2729231 honestann
honestann's picture

Not to mention that few advocates of Ayn Rand realized when they were in 1st grade, or 8th grade, or even 12th grade the nature of government OR the nature of ANY philosophy, including hers.  To blame kids for not knowing what they might learn or advocate 10, 20, 30 years later... is pure, overt, and very obvious gross misrepresentation.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:03 | 2726205 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

"And you are a fucking cultist who cannot see what is right in front of his face."

I know, right...

 

Paul Ryan’s Guru Ayn Rand Worshipped A Serial Killer Who Kidnapped and Dismembered Little Girls - By Mark Ames - The eXiled - http://bit.ly/TMaNcY

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