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Whither Gold
The prophetic words of Antal Fekete in his now infamous 'essay' on Gold are as relevant now (perhaps more so) as they were when he first wrote them 15 years ago - especially as the Euro-zone migrates from lossening fiat-money to quasi-money (greek pharma bonds for instance). While summarizing this must-read discussion of mainstream economic orthodoxy's mis-teachings is impractical, his initial introduction sets the stage for what is to come: "The year 1971 was a milestone in the history of money and credit. Previously, in the world's most developed countries, money (and hence credit) was tied to a positive value: the value of a well-defined quantity of a good of well-defined quality. In 1971 this tie was cut. Ever since, money has been tied not to positive but to negative values -- the value of debt instruments." After a brief, clarifying history of money, Fekete goes on to discuss the misnomers of currency depreciation, gold as wealth, the failings of kicking the can, quantitative easing, and finally in the misunderstanding of interest rates themselves - seeing them as nothing more than merely bribe-money, trying to persuade reluctant holders of irredeemable promises to hang on a while longer. Paradoxically, gold's importance is growing while its dispersal from official hoards and the mines continues apace. Dispersed gold represents latent power, far greater in scope than its nominal market value, as sound credit can be built only upon a gold base.
Log Scale chart of the price of Gold.
On Currency Depreciation:
Mainstream economic orthodoxy teaches that a depreciating currency is a boon to the country, and a valid tool in the hands of the government to increase competitiveness and thus to reduce or to eliminate the current account deficit. A debased currency makes the country an attractive place for foreigners in which to buy and an unattractive place in which to sell. Exports are boosted, imports curtailed; thus the deficit is narrowed.
Terms of Trade for Seven of the world's largest trade regions
This is one of the most pernicious doctrines ever concocted -- as demonstrated both by theory and practice. Deliberate currency depreciation puts the country at a clear disadvantage, causing its terms of trade to deteriorate. As all items for export have imported components, no one can maintain for long low export prices in the face of ever rising cost of imports.
On Gold as 'wealth':
It is important for us to realize that every word of the doctrine on the sterility of gold is an outright lie. Not only can the owner of gold earn a return in gold on his holdings even under the regime of irredeemable currency, but gold is the only form of tangible wealth that can be lent out at interest and that is in constant demand as such.
3 Month Gold Forward Offered Rate (Lending Gold On Swap Against the USD)
There is a lively gold loan market in the world: gold is put out in loans and is borrowed at interest on a regular basis. It is used in financing great capital projects as well as trade -- in the same way (although not on the same scale) as it always did under the gold standard.
On 'kicking the can':
The term `redistributive society', as it is used by both its protagonists and antagonists, refers to the redistribution of wealth and income -- after they have been produced. More ominously, a movement to redistribute future losses is afoot. If successful, losses will be perpetuated and passed on to society. The scheme will allow the indolent, the inefficient, the inept, and the consistent loss-maker to continue in business indefinitely at the expense of the industrious, the efficient, and the profit-conscious.
On Quantitative Easing & Monetization:
The central bank goes into the open market and buys government bonds. As a result bond prices go up or, what is the same, interest rates go down. But the flipside of this is that now there is even more irredeemable currency in circulation. This cannot help but make the pace of currency depreciation increase.
The rational basis upon which bond values rest was overthrown when gold-redeemability of the currency was abolished. The fanatic denial of this fact is central to mainstream economic orthodoxy.
On Interest rates:
Under the regime of irredeemable currency, interest is merely bribe-money, trying to persuade reluctant holders of irredeemable promises to hang on a while longer.
A low and stable interest-rate structure, in particular, cannot be achieved without making credit gold-bonded. This elementary truth is now in the public domain, even though our universities have been somewhat tardy in accepting it.
And on the future of Gold:
Paradoxically, gold's importance is growing while its dispersal from official hoards and the mines continues apace. Dispersed gold represents latent power, far greater in scope than its nominal market value, as sound credit can be built only upon a gold base. When the dispersal of gold reaches a certain threshold (nobody knows where exactly this threshold is), a metamorphosis of money will take place. Gold will reclaim its throne as constitutional monarch in the monetary and credit system of the world.
Charts: Bloomberg
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it all happened in an unfortunate smelting accident
and then that explosion!
and the boating accident, too...
...canoe, wasn't it?
it's gold.. it's gold.. it's gold.. it's gold.. its' gold, it's solid gold.
I am fromz Holland.... izn't thadt weird
are you married?
ohh beeeehave
One must see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc
Gold is worth its weight in gold.
That doesn't stop CNBC from still hating it.
"it all happened in an unfortunate smelting accident"
Isn't that what happened to Peter Parker?
I've learned more about gold and it's genuine role, and it's future, from reading Antal Fekete than from reading anyone else, including all of the well-known gold pundits (Schiff, Sinclair, FOFOA, etc). For me, the turning poiint in my understanding was his relentless (and proper) emphasis on the capital-destructive nature of the central bank-induced regime of constantly falling interest rates, what he calls "risk free bond speculation" (PIMCO, anyone?), and gold's propoer role. His stuff is excellent reading and I highly recommend it. It imparted to me a completely different kind of understanding of the subject.
A capitalist society cannot function without capital, and what we are witnessing right now is undeniably capital destruction on a truly epic scale. Of course the value of all "capital assets" is called into question in such a situation, forcing their values to become the subject of interventions. Of course the underlying so-called "legal system" supports these blatant interventions on all levels. ZH readers can cite all-too-numerous examples. Of course there is no "capital formation;" the west is devoid of capital and now is borrowing and eating the seed corn of every other society, and printing to make up any difference. Of course it can't work, and of course it is unsustainable, and of course any thinking person can see it. The ensuing disaster will be one for the record books. Obama just announced the 2012 and 2013 deficits will be bigger than previously predicted. Well, of course they will be. Is anyone surprised?
Do you all understand?
Well put SWRichmond, I haven't read any Fekete to this point, but he has some very compelling arguments, ones I frankly haven't heard. To your point on PIMCO, of course they have been amongst the biggest winners in the risk free bond speculation game, but what adds so much intrigue to that now is Bill Gross' recent Damascus Road event with respect to gold, and the end of the bull market for bonds. I really wonder how many more establishment investors, even of Gross' stature are begining to question the current system and the prevailing Keynesian dogma as well, and how they are coming to these conclusions. Maybe they're reading ZH.
Of course ;'}
More simply put, Gold follows USD.
EU up Vs. USD.
USD "perceived" as "weaker."
Gold UP.
REPEAT, through the rest of the PIIGS nations "run for the money."
They're going to want/need the same "deal" Greece got.
I'm just waiting for the gold miners to catch the wave!
It would have been cheaper to build some American crap in solid gold.
I just sent it to about 15 nerds. Looked interesting to me, if a bit annoying.
I don't know but gas prices have been going up steadily for 2 weeks now, the sheeple see that 4 spot at the gas station they may start snooping to find out the currency has been blown up, with another holiday weekend next weekend we are way overdue for the short and sweet bank holiday............When talking about gold on cnbs on friday morining all cramer would say was "he liked it and that it was harder AND HARDER to find" hmmmmmmm
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few.
Spock
The bankers and elite set up a monetary system that their assets almost always appreciate and everyone else's assets depreciate. When their assets don't appreciate they rig the system to steal assets from the many. I would much prefer if they just got a sign and stood on the corner of a busy intersection with a sign that says " My trust fund is only at 3 million. Could you spare some change?
We got hope and change in a huge warehouse in Chicago.....how much can I put you down for?
It's free and it comes with a lifetime supply of Koolaid.
No. But I could spare a link to the article. For those adverse to the Scribd mucking about.
http://www.drschoon.com/articles%5CAEFWhitherGold.pdf
in 1900 a millionaire was someone who had just short of 50,000 oz of gold ($20.7/oz).
A million dollars doesn't buy what it once did (except for politicians).
Yup, that's when that Evil Ronald Reagan had set it right before the Bushies and Clinton gota ahold of it..
50.000 oz of gold in 1900 = One million dollars
now?
A million bucks will buy you about 580 ozs of gold!
WOW! I guess the buck didn,t stop on Harry's desk! Keeps gettin (devalued) cheaper.
You broke the cascade/trend...let me pick it up
one MILLION dollars
there are two things i hate in this world...intolerence to other cultures...and the Dutch
I read somewhere that you can not make a contract which involves payment in gold. Anyone knows anything like that?
you can ask theNuttyProfessorTMyourself!
if you do a modicum of research, you can figure out how to ask this thru his eventsSecretary
alternately, you can wait for k_nuk to come by with the US code
Yes. Under US code, exchanges of value cannot specifically be settled with gold. I believe that is a hold over from the old confiscation days thereby marginalizing (legally for what it's worth, thereby initiating a black market therein) settlemnts of gold infavor of fiat.
However; as with ALL laws and regulations (Just ask a Tax Accountant or an Investment Banker.... whenever a new law is passed or there's a change in the tax code, it's grist for the IB or accountant's mill.) there are ways about such. For example, if one wished to sell one's house for gold, one could settle the exchange in dollars, then sell the dollars to buy gold with the very same counterparty.
In Vietnam where there is a history of rampant inflation (1,000,000VND = $50ish) house transactions must be carried out in gold. Although in the "free" west, gold transactions and even gold ownership would more likely be banned by law in the event of rampant inflation.
Gold ownership was made illegal in the Great Depression, as I recall. I think you are right that they would try to ban ownership of gold again in the even of really bad inflation, and definitely hyperinflation, however, I'd like to see the government try to take it away from people who need it to buy food and pay bills in the event of say, something really serious like hyperinflation. If the SHTF I'd say all bets are off, and in any case, people would have far more serious things to worry about than whether or not to surrender their gold to the government.
I hear the arguments for the US revisiting the ban on gold, but the fact of the matter is this would lead to an even greater evacuation of wealth out of the country than what would happen in the even of a major/hyper inflationary event. When the US banned gold, there was not an international market for it like there is today, it was mostly confined to the US and Europe. Now that it's an international market, all that would happen is an evacuation of gold into other countries, and those that needed purchasing power would simply convert it into another currency, and turn around and buy up the same amount of USD's that they would have with their gold - meaning purchasing power stays the same. And if they didn't also ban silver, copper, and other divisible commodities, it could just be converted into these as well. The black market alone could also make the organized crime of the prohibition era seem like a stroll down sunshine lane.
The fact of the matter is you and gold advocates like Celente could be right, it could happen, but it could quite possibly be the stupidest thing the US could do. This is why I am more inclined to think it won't happen. In the end, i am not too worried since I am mostly in silver anyway.
I agree 100% with your analysis, but disagree with your call to be mostly in silver. Central banks do not hoard silver, therefore it won't be a part of any new global monetary regime. It will store value as it is needed in industry, which will collapse in a TSHTF scenario. 80% gold, 20% silver has a better argument from an overall risk/volatility perspective and monetary perspective.
Reven,
Trust me, if I could afford to, I would be more in gold, because I do think it will form the monetary base in the next iteration of the dollar (or whatever the hell our next currency will be), but due to the fact that I was a) late to the game, and b) don't have access to a good deal of personal capital for investment, I opted for silver because of it's scalability and excessive supression compared to gold. With my lack of cash up front, I was willing to take the risk on silver given the fact that it has (potentially) higher upside than gold does. But, if I was more well heeled, I would probably opt for an 80-20 ratio just like you speak of.
Silver just seemed to suit me more. In the unlikely event of outlawing gold, I doubt that silver would also be outlawed. But the way I see it, I don't think either would happen, because if it did, it would basically be the US waiving the white flag in the currency wars, and saying to the world "we're fucked!!!" come buy/take all of our shit on the cheap.
Not related are we?
if that is the case why can i buy 1750 dollars with an ounce of gold?
(not that i would unless i was desparate to start a fire or something)
I am not a lawyer, but the way it was explained to me by a lawyer was:
It has to do if there is debt or not. Dollars are legal payment for debt.
If the deal is structured as an exchange or trade and not a debt, it is possible to make it payable only in gold.
Example: a contract that explicitly states you are trading your car for 10 ounces of gold at the time of transfer will work, but one where you buy the car and make monthly payments of 1 ounce won't, you can force the holder of the debt to accept dollars.
If there's no time exposure, there's no debt. Obviously lawyers would twist things, but if there's no time exposure, then there's no place to twist.
wyer is wrong; a contract between two private parties can be anything as payment; dollars are payment of debt to government entities; everyone follows along because it's the current sea.
Not true (anymore)! So called "gold clauses" are currently legal.
Previously: They were effectively made illegal when owning gold was made illegal. Congress passed the Gold Clause Resolution of 1933, followed by the Gold Reserve Act of 1934. A few gold clause cases made it to the SCOTUS in 1935 and in all of them the gold clauses were found to not hold any more. (They were all 5-4 split decisions.)
Now: Gold has been legal to own since December 31, 1974 (see Public law 93-373). However, that didn't repeal the gold clause restriction. But as of October 28, 1977 (see Public law 95-147 section 4c), gold clauses are once again legal (for any contracts made after 1977).
if it's illegal i guess Trump commited a crime when he leased office space in NY to APMEX and took a security deposit on the lease contract in the form of 3 kilo's of physical gold .NOT ILLIGAL is the answer .
look here : http://youtu.be/CGrSyQdl4q8
There was a guy a few years ago who was paying some his employees in gold, based on the printed value on the coin. Everyone was happy come tax time, except the IRS, who put an end to it.
LMAO... they were probably eligible for the Earned Income Credit, too. Note also we have a branch of the government itself disavowing the value printed on their own coinage.
His name is Robert Kahre.
In 2007, the jury acquitted on the charges against his employees but hung on 109 counts against Kahre and his sister.
Kahre was convicted on 57 counts in 2009.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/53287717.html
Harsh. Something's missing here. If these coins are legal tender, then you should be allowed to pay people with them, despite the craziness of paying them at the face value of the coin. Otherwise, it would seem the government is admitting by this case that their own coinage isn't legal. Tax avoidance is legal, although the IRS may decide you "avoided" incorrectly and make you pay back taxes and penalties, but not criminal. Tax evasion is criminal, and to prove that in a court you'd probably have to prove fraudulent intent. Any lawyers here?
If we accept that the actual amount in dollars paid to employees in gold can be based upon face value of gold coinage, then it would be very difficult to make minimum wage, which would be about one AGE every seven worker hours. Paying your people, whose wages are subject to minimum wage, the actual minimum wage would only come to about 21 cents an hour in face value of gold coin. What position would this guy take if sued by his employees for the remaining $7 per hour in face value of gold coin the law says is due?
They were paying people based on Fair Market Value, but reporting taxes based on Face Value. You cannot switch back and forth, you have to report using one method or the other, otherwise its clearly planned tax evasion.
example: I get paid one ounce of silver for an hours work (American Silver Eagle $1 face value), report it as $1 income on taxes, but convert it to ~$30 and list it as $30 income when applying for a mortgage. That seems to be what they were doing.
296 years in prison and fines of up to $14 million, according to the U.S. Attorney's office?!!
You could mass murder a sunday school full of children and not get half the sentence.
Marijuana is illegal in the federal realm too.... Just ask a few counties in the state of California who could give a rats ass what the feds think or say since they regulate its sale and use..... Jurisdiction is a Bitch.. and the feds aint got any especially when it comes to private contracts between a buyer and seller within a free soveriegn state... Ahhh the smell of liberty.. sometimes smells like weed.
Don't bet the ranch. Pot shops exist at the discretion of the Feds. The minute they decide enough is enough, you and your pals will go real quietly, or wind up in a cell with Bubba.
Don't kid yourself.
This messeage brought to you by the North American Brewers Asscoiation.
Bullshit.... The feds have tried to lean on them and if they could would shut them down yesterday... The only thing that would give the feds jurisdiction is if the growers sold accross state lines... Interstate commerce is the feds only leg.... Similarly , just look what happened when the feds tried to legislate gunz within 500 ft of a school zone within the states... Ooops they cant even do that.. US v Lopez..Jurisdiction is still a Bitch, Bitchez.......
BTW I dont smoke pot or promote its use... but lets be adults here... its ban has done more harm and created more Al Capones than its de-criminilization ever would..
Right on decriminalization. Wrong on jurisdiction.
They can't force the CA AG to do their dirty work, but they sure as hell can send their own stormtroopers; ask Emmalyn's Dispensary in SF.
They mumbled something about taxes as they absconded with all the "clinic"'s dope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause
Discussing what the government can and cannot do it sorta meaningless these days since they make up law as they go along (and selectively enforce it as they go along).
That's what a banana republic is.
Whatever the government wants to do, they can find a legal justification for it, or make one up on the fly, or just flat out lie.
It doesn't matter, they own the judges.
Judicial capture is where constitutional America died. When judges rubber stamp whatever the government says, that's it, there is no more constitution, "supreme law of the land", all that.
Raich v. Ashcroft
Sad but true; sometimes the smell is overpowering.
A bit off topic ... but only a bit.
I have a question for ZHers:
What is a good cash / silver / gold ratio for a person to hold? (by percentage).
Likely won't get any two posters to agree, but I'm still interested in trying to come up with a personal optimum.
3 months living expenses in cash
1 year living expenses in silver
Remainder in gold/land/select commodity stocks
"1 year living expenses in silver"
Is that based on a current spot price? Or can you extrapolate a higher price for silver due to the fact that, IF you needed it, you could assume Ag would be higher?
One gold to every 50 silver.
3 months small cash and coins.
Debt free is the prize.
It is easier for me to hold ASE than Gold because ASE is more liquid and not too restrictive.
Don't use Amazon, Ebay, Paypal etc because they will turn in a form to IRS telling them basis for the year and you will be taxed on that.
Buy physical and take delivery. Never let it go. You could ship say... 50 coins back for one gold for example but never sell.
What would it take for me to sell? Hmm... ask me again when Gold and Silver matches or settled into the proper price range adjusted for 1980.
Among other things, Ammunition and training, marksmanship is very important too.
For me, I tend to keep my mouth shut in real life. If the gossip about the County knows which house contains metals... your security situation just got really bad.
Frankly I quit worrying too much about silver price under 50 and Gold under 2000, it's all cheap compared to what is coming.
And learn a old Colonial or Civil War era trade such as building a Cabin or smithing. It may be more valuable to be paid in Bottle of Cider or something than paper money someday. Our Nation's history time and time again has shown "Not worth a Continental... or "35 Confederate or 5 dollar Union."
Never sell for less than what you paid and always hold physical. Did I say that already?
Not that crap silverware you dummy, the actual metals. The silverware would be good for making ammunition (Another very useful trade...)
Smithing? Really? Any reversion to a level of technology that makes smithing a worthwhile skill will also raise anyone with electrical engineering skills to godlike status. Sure, with your smithing skills you can create useful-shaped tools out of metal. But I, with my eclectrical engineering skills, can take those pieces of metal and turn them into magical devices that compress time and space, allowing us to communicate over great distances and rapidly manufacture the very same items you pounded out by hand.
We'll see who gets all the chicks then ..
if it get's to that point i'll befriend the smith...what are you going to create with your electrical engineering skills? an iphone to call your chinese manfacturer? for what? isn't that what got us into this pending disaster? perhaps with your advanced education you might think before you speak....the smith might just smite you with his battlax and take your ipad and chicks
I could care less about the Chicks.
They would be useful to distract the mark and occupy him while you do a bit of plunder.
The only worry is simple.
Can you get to the fence before the Junkyard dogs? Those who are obese or unfit need not answer this question.
Really? You could care less?
That means you actually do care about the chicks.
@ HungrySeagull
The debt free part has been part of my life for about 20 years.
You are the second one to suggest 3 months cash. It seems to me to be low, but I'm not the teacher here, I'm trying to be the student and learn from others and then make my decisions.
Is your 50:1 ratio based on ounces, current $$$ or projected value in $$$?
50 to one as it stands now regardless where goes gold.
3 months shit cash in 1's 5's and 20's plus a few bags of <64 coins. Hell they are minting bullion in a preforated pizza type slices stamped .999 silver now so you can break off a slice to trade.
Not just cash but Smokes, Spirits, ammo of common calibers to trade if need be and a few other ... useful items.
Those Flea Markets or Antique shops with the 100 year old cook set made for making dinner the hard way at a fireplace... will be very valuable someday. The sheep has not had that idea yet. But they will learn and fast.
I dont base my ration or ratio on anything. I just regret being a Lemming and following the then siren song of crap 401k and bennies instead of 200 gold and 10 dollar silver.
I am making it up quickly as we can. No gold right now, not until I learn what can be moved and how much how fast before it triggers reporting.
Evading taxes? No. It would be very hard to tax unsold assets. If there is such a thing.
Who knows what the future will bring. Death has already came for me and my wife a few times and some of our 9 lives have been used up as they say.
I take it one day at a time. Just to wake up and have something to get done is a gift.
I just think that I will never see enough time remaining to make up for 40+ years of wasted hamster wheel motions trying to conform to the then current system of credit, student loans and very little to nothing interest in shit bank accounts.
No more atms, we have tried to have food and fluids as well as some kind of trauma kit as well as a GSW kit (Galls dot com is a National supplier to our LEO and first responders)
There are probably 95 people who dont take the time to get ready, and half my family has told me to bugger off because they thought I was nuts.
Matters not. Short of a Mountain falling to earth or a nice Gamma Ray burst from deep space, me and wife will be ok. We have already lived a lifetime and change.
We do remember those we saved over the years. (From death, not Religion) and hope that they too have learned and got better.
Just keep this in mind.
The day of your death will begin so ordinary. You will have absolutely NO idea what will get you. If you are fit, alert and keep that head on a swivel you will make out ok.
Never think or freeze in WTF? just do. As long you have breath, you can make a decision and execute. No matter how scared pissless or shitless you may be.
Be fast or be dead.
@in4mayshun
Hmmm. I'm loathe to get into any kind of stocks but other than that, I am looking at some arable land to do some serious gardening (we've always just had little plots).
You also seem to use silver as an item to cover expenses rather than investment. Is that what you are saying?
98% Gold & Silver Rounds
02% Copper Jacketed Rounds.
50% g&s rounds
50% lead rounds
the lead will be just as valuable as the g&s and a bit more useful
@ Gringo Viejo
No cash at all? Not too many people are willing to take PM's for product. At least not yet.
@ Deo
Of course it depends on your financial situation and a lot of other things, but here is mine, by current US $ value:
10% cash FRNs (100s and 20s), for a few months of living expenses
20% silver and platinum
70% gold
I agree with some above posters who say you should have guns & ammo, so lead and brass ought to be in the mixture as well.
I certainly have some percentages to move around.
Why platinum?
I don't know but gas prices have been going up steadily for 2 weeks now, the sheeple see that 4 spot at the gas station they may start snooping to find out the currency has been blown up,
The Currency being blown up is not the reason for the rise.
Refineries are closing down, or cutting production WAY back, because of a huge decline in DEMAND, and USE.
If a product is not needed, ot does not sell as well. SOS ..........Law of Supply & Demand
That's gold, Jerry, Gold!!
(to self) "Bania!"
My condolences on the canoe accident. I understand; my stash found the deep Pacific floor in the same manner. I never was much of a seaman.
Life can be tough. You use all your gold to buy a boat and then the silly boat sinks.
Ice fishing accident, the fish are almost as flashy in the sparkling water.
There is less than 1 oz. of it above ground for every person on this rock. Don't expect it to be used for much other than jewelry.
It is a storage of wealth as is canned foods.
You're not quite down to the bone on the concepts of currency vs. money vs. wealth.
Canned food is wealth, but not a satisfactory store of wealth. Anything with a shelf life can't fulfill the "store of wealth" function. Gold serves well as money because it is scarce, cannot be synthesized, is stable, inert/non-corroding, and comes out of Tutankhamen's tomb looking just like it went in.
Gold is the most effective medium for storing a claim on goods and services. Silver is the most efficient medium for the transactions themselves. I.E., gold in the vault, silver in the till.
Oh so you did notice it didn't go with tut to the after life. bummer
Did you bother to read the essay? As Crucible notes, its scarcity is one of the stronger arguments FOR its utility as a store of wealth. Given its practically infinite divisibility the more wealth stored per unit of weight the more portable that wealth becomes making the case stronger yet. The fact that you can't take it with you when you die may be true but it does allow you to store up your excess labor and pass it on to your descendents enhancing the argument further still. We should just step aside and let you continue to make the case for gold with your objections.
full house!
Straight floosh bitchez!
again?
Gold/Silver has never been worthless! Like paper!
It's never been worthless but it has been confiscated
No. You're wrong. FDR told people to turn it in or "Fear the reaper!". People could have put it in their sock drawer and waited the fascist government out if they had the ballz.
You are exactly correct, MLH, and I bristle every time I hear somebody ignorantly or disingenuously speak of "gold confiscation" in the USA. Gold was NEVER "confiscated", it was simply made illegal to purchase. Nobody went door-to-door busting in and searching homes for gold, not in the USA anyway. And even in 1933-1934, less than 25% of all the outstanding US gold coins were ever turned in to the government (by the stupidest, most ignorant and gutless of sheep); does anyone REALLY believe that more than that would turn their gold over to the US government if demanded to today?
illegal to own?
illegal to possess?
Yes, but unlike the past, they may know how much gold you purchased and from whom, so they could easily make your life very unpleasant until you hand it over - unless you buy physical using cash and leave no traceable information.
How do you manage to get out of bed in the morning?
Because to do things today is a far better activity than rotting away in bed.
Bed is for sleep, rest, lovemaking, and sickbay. Nothing else. There will be a long night for us all when the line gets long enough.
Saving the world
is exhilarating.
www.EndOfInnocence.com
The chemtails are to give you alzheimers so you forget where you stashed it. No winning for you.
The point being, the rules tend to change when the nuts get close to the fire. Outright confiscation may not have been the literal case but the intent as a precedent is noteworthy.
area 51....alien gold detection device reverse engineering...the electrical engineer (aaronb17 ) that want's to create ipads in shtf to get chicks probably works there
Many did keep their gold, just like many did not register their full auto weapons during the unconstitutional ban and corresponding amnesty period. Ooops..............
At least one example of a Person who actually did. He died some time ago leaving some Gold coin in his desk or something.
When that was discovered, it ended up being contested by the Fed and the Fed won the ruling.
It was worth about 9 mil in today's money if the story is true.
You sure you're not confusing that story with that of the family that turned in a couple of gold eagles that were part of a small run that was immediately discontinued and that a few of those coins were stolen. The family somehow had possession of these coins which were worth several million to a collector, not in bullion weight. Anyway, it was ruled that since those coins were originally stolen by someone that no one could have come by them legally. That is why the treasury won that round.
If your story were true, Treasury agents would have cleared the St. Gaudens double eagles from the coin dealers years ago.
You may be thinking of the Israel Witt case. The 1933 St. Gaudens distribution was canceled by FDR after the strike was underway. The strike was melted down. A few coins were smuggled from the Philadelphia mint, and the Treasury Dept has been keeping an eye out for them ever since.
http://www.mintstategold.com/investor-education/saint_gaudens_trial/
Witt's 10 coins were valued at about $80 million.
HungrySeagull
When that was discovered, it ended up being contested by the Fed and the Fed won the ruling.
It was worth about 9 mil in today's money if the story is true.
He had 10, 1933 $20.00 St Gaudens, illegal to own, and Uber rare.
His family took them to the Treasury and asked if they were real.
You bet, and, they went tocurt, and lost the righs to them,the price you refer to was for ONE that was legal (owned by the Ling of Siam, and bought by aporivate collecter on his death.
Feds took that to court also, and lost.
The owner(Legally sold it at auction).
I remember hearing a similar story, it was a lady who found the coins after his death, then took them to the mint to have them identified and they refused to return them to her. They claimed they were never released for the public and therefore were gotten through theivery.
the more the MSM say's gold is a bubble, the more convinced i feel about my Silver Kilo's & Gold Oz's
MSM wants you to sell out now.
DON'T do it. No matter how much you need the cash.
That is all.
Nothing like a straight line on a semilog scale to impress you. 10 years of exponential growth.
Meh. Inflation adjusted gold is still in the middle of its range. I still want to see a run up against fiat destruction.
Exponential on a semi-log scale?
Or would that be a log scale?
Straight line on a log-linear axis means you have y=A exp x +B, which is an exponential. Now if it were exponential on semi-log, that would be some crazy shit, like y= A (exp ( B exp x) +C ) + D
On a log-log scale a straight line is a power law like y = A x^b.
(I know that's boring but I just wanted to clarify what I said. When you look at that first chart, you don't often get data that follow that straight a line as from 2001 onward).
Why you gotta get all smart on us?
Inflation is the exponential part, but according to gold it has nothing to do with the CPI bullshit their jaws are moving about.
Hmmm, but when will it happen? There's only a billion reality shows about gold mining and still the politicians fix the markets with some new paper patchwork. Sigh.
I've heard those shows are more comedy than about striking. Keep the sheeple believing gold is for silly people.
Poor Whitney....
Keep the sheeple believing gold is for silly people.
Save the inconsistency for Mitt Romney and the rest of the pols. You had a great riff the other day about how 'sheeple' is a self-defeating term. That was a very good point.
Gold's worthless, all the smart guys know that.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/907467...
Warren Buffet cannot make money with gold as standard /or currency backing because he cannot make/manufacture/print gold.
With the Fed's printing press , Wall Street controlling it and his cronies in the Government he is able to do so.
He is a crock of shit put up by the Wall Street establishment to seduce people into the scams they are operating.
On insider trading he should be behind bars for a couple of centuries.
Funny that gold is still aggressive even thought it has had gains for a decade.
It's easier to understand if you think of it, not as gold getting more valuable for a decade, but rather a paper dollar being debased steadily for a decade. That process can go on for a long, long time. If it's gradual enough, that is.
An ounce of gold will buy many more dollars than it used to, but not as many more houses. Take 1980, when gold peaked around $850 and the median price of a home in California was $84,500 (far above the national median). At that point, 100 ounces of gold would get you a median home in Cali.
Today, 100 ounces of gold will buy a $170,000 house, give or take. The median price for a house in San Diego, is over $340,000. Either gold goes higher, Cali homes fall further or (most likely) both.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/values.html
http://www.deptofnumbers.com/asking-prices/california/san-diego/
I might listen to buffett if, starting before the crash and up until today, he had been correctly and publicly predicting the price of food, oil, gold, stocks, and housing.
Well ... did he?
That "Crock" as you put it, owns a railroad and when you have 50000 acres of grain to ship... you might need him someday.,
Don't like that scumbum? (I just dated myself here..) Just pay the turkeyneck what his shit rails is worth and own it yourself.
i'd be an oracle too if i was told what was going to happen before everyone else
"Buffett said that gold investors were pinning their hopes on future demand"
China's controlling of gold in the ground (miners) and it's continued stealth purchases of above-ground gold begs to differ.
Interest in replacing the petrodollar with other currencies or gold-backed ones (Iran, Libya, Iraq) does as well.
Buffett stands to lose on that one.
His statement screams of protecting the status quo.
Methinks Warren doth protest too much.
Could someone please put up a tribute to Whitney Houston.
Her death is just so so sad an unbelievable trajegy.
Was she a gold miner, or a factory worker, or a doctor, or a lumberjack or inventor or something?
Who gets her gold fillings?
what about the GOLD and PLATINUM albums!!!
Dude!
You're genuine Goldman material thinking like that!
Back to the mines you lazy goldbricks.
I think her dope dealer already has those :)
Forget the Gold fillings. I prefer either Ceramic or Mercury. They are reliable temperature indicators.
Did you know that Whitney Houston's debut LP called simply Whitney Houston had four number-one singles on it ?
It's hard to choose a favorite among so many great tracks.
But the "Greatest Love Of All" is one of the best, most powerful songs ever written about self-preservation and dignity.
It's universal message crosses all boundaries and instills one with the hope that it's not too late to better ourselves.
Since, it's impossible in this world we live in to empathize with others, we can always empathize with ourselves.
It's an important message. Crucial, really.
And it's beautifully stated on the album.
Not the face !
haha.
Betrayed by her own fame and fortune, betrayed by those who sucked the money out of her, betrayed by those who could have helped her find her center.
Rings a bell or two, donchathink?
Yes, there is a pattern here.
Yeah, she was a real Dagney Taggert. ;-)
Still, at least she worked hard to produce something people wanted enough to voluntarily pay for it. That sure beat's Obama, Bush, Bernanke, etc.
She wasn't betrayed by anybody but herself.
Her personal choice to freely indulge in drugs was her own doing.
Not a wise choice that's my opinion, but she never called me and asked for my opinion either.
Whither gold? Tis thither, 'neath yonder shed.
My gold?
Verily, the ad for it was posted many fortnights ago on the List of Craig, alas! My good exchequer, prithee tell our prince (God save him), it is no more. The subsequent paper was lost at the City of Atlantic, gaming.
...Got some lovely filth over here though, he can have that, wot wot?!
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." — Winston Churchil
How ugly is your bitch in terms of Leverage?
US Bank's leveraged at 13:1
Europe banks leveraged 26:1
The FED is levereged 52:1
Terrorist Items:
1- Gold/Silver/Copper
2- SMG's / Pistols
3- House Garden
4- Beef Jerky and Canned Food
"Lock & Load " Bitches
I don't think the Fed is leveraged that high....they have all that gold sitting on the reserve side of their balance sheet....
German gold?
Or the tungsten bars in Fort Knox that they "mistakenly" gave Germans?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbxwTgxPzJk
Mr. Lennon! you can not be serious! They are leveraged even more than this now, imagine a small rise in interest rates or a small drop in asset value what would that do to them? We talk Greece and we foret the Fed's
It will ignite the printing press, they can't go insolvent since they work on behalf of god in this earth. Gold & Silver i say!
I don't think they have that much gold, if you say 10K Tones of Gold that would be 1/2 a trillion or 1 Trillion (MAX)
their balance sheet is Bloated
Literally? Gawd I hope so.
If interest rose say... 10% Congress will be unable to make a budget that has room for just the interest payment on our National Debt.
@ Mr Lennon H
I believe the Fed has approx. $11 billion in Gold Certificates, not physical gold they own. The Treasury seized their gold in 1933 and gave them the non-negotiable non-transferable Gold Certificates. The NY Fed DOES hold gold in its NYC vaults on behalf of foreign governments (and a little bit of US national gold -- not much!) and other customers.
Source: FOFOA
Just one little nagging worry.
NYC may not be the best place to store it anymore. Not sicne it is common knowledge.
And we would do well to sell back the gold at fair value for either cash, a favor or a write off of debt and ship the shit bullion back to the owner nations.
Let them store their own gold and provide for their own security.
I am sick and tired of the Nations looking to the USA with hands out asking for help with common tasks such as storage and security of precious metals.
And they can take the UN with them when they leave. Those folks are a cancer upon us all.
.....and the Federal side of their balance sheet is the US Armed Services.
You spelled "bitches" wrong... its "bitchez". Back to public school for indoctrination.
Who's Whitney Houston?
a great singer admired by many worldwide
Who's Many?
That's "'HO's Many".
Whitney Houston lost his position as CEO of Alamo Auto Rentals after a hostile takeover bid by the Santa Anna cartel. Houston engineered a poison-pill maneuver at San Jacinto and ejected Santa Anna and his retainers.
He was honored by having a Texas city named after him--I think it was Galveston.
~Proud Public School Graduate