This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Wikileaks Reveals Early Chinese Warning Of Domestic Asset Bubbles, Overcapacity, Bashing Of "Copy And Paste" Educational System

Tyler Durden's picture


Wikileaks' threat to expose Bank of America came and went, and yet all it took for the bank to implode was reality, a little time, and an independent media. That said, Wikileaks has not yet been completely relegated to the compost heap of one time fads. In a blast submission of several thousand cables, Julian Assange tries to regain his one time star status. While we have to go through the bulk, one that caught our attention was a cable from the US delegation in Chengdu, China, where a counsel met with a local representative of the World Bank's International Finance Corporation, for some candid one on one. While the bulk of the exposition, which took place in December of 2009,  is not surprising, there are some frank admissions about the emergence of a Chinese bubble, long before the topic was mainstream (and only fringe investors would consider it), observation that urban housing prices are "here to stay for the coming few years as they are an unavoidable, long-term aspect of the nationwide, structural shift in the population from rural area to urban centers", the realization that the solar industry is plagued by overcapacity and due for a restructuring (many "solar" longs would have been delighted to know this well in advance of the recent decimation in the Chinese solar stock space), but most notable is the Chinese admission that "China will remain a "poor country" for years to come, and can expect to emerge as a "respectable mid-level" country only in another 10-20 years" in order to grow its service sector from the current 30-40% of the economy to a US-comparable 75%, many structural shifts will have to take place. And while such shifts "are already happening to some extent in places like the Pearl River Delta", and "Chinese companies increasingly setting up factories overseas" the biggest impediment is China's "terrible educational system" which "promotes copying and pasting over creative and independent thought." Explaining further, "the normal process undertaken by students when writing as essentially collecting sentences from various sources without any original thinking.  He compared the writing ability of a typical Chinese Phd as paling in comparison to his "unskilled" staff during his decade of work with the IFC in Africa." Well, if China's education system is worse than that of the US, we can probable stop worrying about the dollar relinquishing its reserve status. On the other hand, we would be the first to point out that China, which does not admit defeat, is probably in the early stages of the next bubble: that of importing teachers, educators, professors and generally Ivy League Ph.D.'s. Which is great: take as many as you want. The average tenured Ivy League (not to mention MIT and NYU) professor has already done enough damage to the US - it is only fair that they destroy China next.

From Wikileaks

E.O. 12958: N/A
REF: A) 09 CHENGDU 271, B) 09 CHENGDU 310, C) 09 BEIJING 665
CHENGDU 00000005  001.2 OF 003
1. (U) This cable contains sensitive but unclassified information - not for distribution on the Internet.
2. (SBU) Summary: The head of the World Bank's International Finance Corporation (IFC) office in Chengdu, a PRC national with a patriotic bent, acknowledged that China faces possible asset bubbles, but was confident that China's "strong and technocratic" government would intervene effectively if the signals of overheating became too severe.  Rapidly rising urban housing prices are here to stay for the coming few years, he believes, as they are an unavoidable, long-term aspect of the nationwide, structural shift in the population from rural area to urban centers.  The IFC is trying to push Beijing to address the lack of affordable housing for moderate income households.

China does have overcapacity in several industries, but the emphasis on mega-projects by local politicians, many of whom are engineers, will make reducing overcapacity more difficult.  Over the next 10-20 years, China will need to restructure its economy so that it has a significantly higher share of knowledge-based services, especially research and development.  However China's "terrible" educational system, which promotes copying and pasting over creative and independent thought, is the largest impediment the country faces on this front, our IFC contact said.  End summary.
Asset Bubbles: "Signs Are There", But Government Intervention Will Address

3. (SBU) In a December 17 meeting with Consul General, the head of IFC's Chengdu office, Lai Jinchang, discussed the question of whether stimulus policies have created asset bubbles in the Chinese economy.  Lai noted the "staggering" amount of credit the government injected into the economy in 2009, contrasting the estimates of around 9.3 - 9.4 trillion RMB (USD 1.3 - 1.4 trillion) with the "normal" annual figure of less than 4 trillion (USD 588 billion).  This has certainly caused inflationary pressures - he particularly noted increased prices in iron and steel, petroleum products, electricity, water, edible oil, and produce.  However, Lai, perhaps in part out of patriotism and bureaucratic survival instincts, made the ambivalent prognosis that, although "The signs of an asset bubble are there," the economy was not yet experiencing "genuine" asset bubbles.
4. (SBU) Overall, Lai said he was not worried about the possible emergence of asset bubbles because of the Chinese government's capacity to track the situation and take timely and effective action.  If credit needs to be further reigned, the government will just set a new quota and make it happen.  In particular, he highlighted the December Communist Party of China (CPC) Economic Work Conference, where participants emphasized the need for some cooling down of credit.  He also noted the Central Bank of China's public stance on moderating credit in the coming year.

Lai assessed the basic economic policy stance going into 2010 as unchanged, continuing to emphasize a favorable monetary policy, but with the size of the credit expansion significantly reduced.
Overcapacity in Number of Industries:  Local Politicians Contribute to the Problem
5. (SBU) Asked about the European Chamber of Commerce in China's recent report on overcapacity in China, Lai said he had not yet read the report, but agreed that overcapacity was a problem in a number of industries.  He highlighted the bio-energy, wind and solar industries in particular, noting that they had grown rapidly in recent years as a result of a surfeit of subsidies, and would likely face a period of restructuring.  He also expected the industries targeted in the central government's ten-industry stimulus plans (Ref C) to develop overcapacity.

6. (SBU) Regardless of concerns about national overcapacity, local politicians, such as in inland provinces of Southwest China, will continue to rely on investment in large projects to boost local GDP and further their own prestige, Lai said.  He agreed that Leshan in Sichuan, where the city is planning three billion USD investment in transportation and industrial infrastructure (see Ref B) may be such a case.  "They are mostly engineers so they understand mega-projects, but they don't understand the law," Lai stressed, further explaining that he views most Chinese leaders as lacking an understanding of institution building.  However, he said, the emphasis on large projects to boost GDP figures is "not all bad."  After all, "they have been doing it for decades" and there have clearly been some benefits.
Inflated Housing Costs: Here to Stay as Urbanization Continues; Moderate Income Households Most Severely Affected
7. (SBU) While housing prices have certainly seen some increase, this is not a major issue in cities such as Chengdu, Lai felt, as prices generally remain within reason.  Discussing the Beijing and Shanghai markets, he described the housing prices as "a little scary" and in many cases "totally out of reach" for the vast majority of Chinese citizens.  Nevertheless, investment in the hotter housing markets - for those who can afford it -- will likely remain secure for a while to come, he predicted. Although purchase prices often far outstrip realistic rental incomes, the capital gains on most housing purchases will continue to make the purchases worthwhile.  The apparent excess of new empty apartment buildings in urban areas, along with price increases, was not necessarily irrational, Lai asserted.

Rather, he believed these trends to be driven by the long-term process of urbanizing the Chinese population - a process that still has years to go.  Separately, Lai asserted that one problem with including housing prices in China's Consumer Price Index (CPI) is that the commercial housing market was immature and just over a decade old (so that the data was not yet reliable enough for its inclusion in the CPI).
8. (SBU) Overall, he said, the current housing market in China is still manageable for middle and high income households.  Low income households are also managing as they have access to government housing programs whereby they can rent low-cost homes.  However, moderate income households - with incomes too high to qualify for low-income housing but falling short of the middle class -- are falling through the cracks.  The IFC is trying to push the government to address this problem, with a focus primarily on incentivizing commercial developers to build moderately priced housing for this market.  To this end, Lai believes the government should conditionally support developers by providing lower priced land and government subsidies.  In addition, he emphasized the need for mortgage insurance, and more broadly for capital market development in order to broaden mortgage access.
Toward a "Respectable" Mid-Level Economy in 10-20 Years: China Must Shift to Become a Knowledge - and Service-Based Economy
9. (SBU) China will remain a "poor country" for years to come, and can expect to emerge as a "respectable mid-level" country only in another 10-20 years, Lai said.  Successful development over this period will require a structural shift so that Chinese companies' share of the intangible elements of economic output increase significantly.  China's share of the research and development, services, and marketing remains low, he emphasized.  He stressed that the service sector accounts for only 30-40 percent of the economy at present, in contrast to the US at 75 percent, and Europe at 70 percent.  In the coming years, China needs to affect a shift to increase the service sector to at least 60 percent.
10. (SBU) The necessary structural shifts are already happening to some extent in places like the Pearl River Delta, Lai noted, highlighting a transition there from industries requiring low-tech labor, to those that are increasingly skills-based. Citing historical shifts in other Asian economies such as South Korea, he also foresaw Chinese companies increasingly setting up factories overseas, utilizing local labor with Chinese management.  As the Chinese economy shifted to become more knowledge-based, and as Chinese companies increased their overseas presence, the constituency for IPR protection would also expand, he believed.

"Terrible" Education System Is Main Impediment
11. (SBU) However, Lai identified China's "terrible" educational system as presenting a serious impediment toward achieving a shift to a more knowledge-based economy.  The current system promotes copying and pasting over creative and independent thought.  Lai said that the system rewards students for thinking "within a framework" in order to get the grade.  He described the normal process undertaken by students when writing as essentially collecting sentences from various sources without any original thinking.  He compared the writing ability of a typical Chinese Phd as paling in comparison to his "unskilled" staff during his decade of work with the IFC in Africa.



- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:16 | 1608462 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture


Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:52 | 1608518 Michael
Michael's picture

Agenda 21 Bitches!

Agenda 21 For Dummies

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:30 | 1608589 russki standart
russki standart's picture

Wikileaks is a CIA front.  Nothing of substance was ever released. The above info can easily be collated from public sources. 

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:51 | 1608926 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Indeed...wikileaks, huge psy-op. As susal, some truth mixed in. But if this is the tell, imagine what is not told?



Sun, 08/28/2011 - 01:20 | 1608947 Michael
Michael's picture

Codex Alimenatarious portion moderated out of this discussion.

Very nice.

Enjoy this;

I found something new very interesting. I recommend watching the whole thing. Weekend watching. Pax Americana and the Weaponization of Space


Sun, 08/28/2011 - 16:08 | 1609816 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

(Reuters) - Some internal Bank of America files obtained by WikiLeaks have been destroyed, according to a former close collaborator of Julian Assange, the whistleblowing website's founder.

In an email to Reuters, Daniel Domscheit-Berg, who last year was fired by Assange as WikiLeaks' co-spokesman, confirmed that he had destroyed "roundabout" 3,000 submissions WikiLeaks received related to Bank of America.

Wed, 12/07/2011 - 06:09 | 1954124 jaffa
jaffa's picture

In the course of a company doing business, some consumers may take legal action against a corporation to recover money for damages and or to gain media attention and public interest. A consumer lawsuit does many things to a company including damaging its public reputation and causing it to spend a substantial amount of money to resolve the situation. Thanks.
resume help

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:18 | 1608568 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

China has more 'honor' students than the USA has students. If you have not been to China, they truly value education and your grade means the difference between shame and being respected, as does WHERE you place within your graduating class. In the USA, on the other hand, there is record high school(!) drop out rates in many places.

The USA 'leak' reads like pure propoganda. Reminds me of when Timmy Geithner went to China talking about the 'strong dollar' policy. Chinese students, being far wiser than to believe Tim's bullshit, literally laughed in Timmay's face.

The truth is, the USA knows that Asian countries have a far higher education system and students have drive to succeed. A grade of B is just not good enough in the eyes of their peers, and family shame if the child gets C or below. Meanwhile in the USA a C grade is acceptable... and dropping out of high school in the USA in not uncommon.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:33 | 1608591 russki standart
russki standart's picture

I agree with you for the most part. The leak reads the standard BS put out by low level functionaries.  One need only compare asian to american standardized test scores to realize just how bad the US system really is. Our universities are good but the secondary school systems are an embarrassment. 

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:14 | 1608883 AnonymousAnarchist
AnonymousAnarchist's picture

ICYMI has been posting some cables worth reading. The most recent details five manslaughter incidents In Iraq.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 16:44 | 1609899 trav7777
trav7777's picture

completely wrong- subtracting blacks and hispanics places us ahead of china.

Our system is not bad at all; we just have a large population with hereditably low IQs

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 17:49 | 1610029 Maniac Researcher
Maniac Researcher's picture

Not only did trav7777 not receive any junks for his openly racist comment, "hereditably low IQs," but he has received one +1.

Diversity of opinion in the ZH community, my ass. Your community has a self censoring system to support multiple views? Yeah - I'll believe it when I see it.

Both the article and the comments are full of racist tripe. Unequivocal statements about the Chinese and American educational systems are completely uncited bullshit. [dropping links to conspiracy websites, white supremacy blogs, and Murdoch-owned periodicals do not count for much - sorry]

Remind me why your community thinks it has credibility? You're preaching to your choir - don't delude yourselves into thinking that ideas presented here have much empirical merit.

Stick to being market mini-exploiters like your friends at Goldman Sachs. Being parasitic financial geeks seems to be all any of you are [moderately] decent at. To say the political commentary is lacking is a bit of an understatement.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 20:30 | 1610425 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

You dropped this too early in the comments. Read on. These ideas are critiqued.

trav's comments went up later, many have been through and left.

trav knows how I feel about his point of view. We have debated it many times. You pick a thread I am not debating him in to drop in and say no one is challenging him. Am I supposed to call him out every single time? Then I'd do nothing else. Too many around.

I get back to my own uncle who is racist. I have helped ruin more than one Thanksgiving debating him. Finally, you just eat turkey together and love your racist uncle. Part of the family.

Each of us has our weaknesses and faults. Some of them are really explosive faults, no doubt. I agree it is a sucky one, but it does not negate every opinion he has. For some folks here, it does. I don't fault them and I understand why they need to shut him out, they have clear lines in the sand. Too many tragedies have occured justified by the race rubric. I still want to listen, still want to understand "why" they feel like they can generalize characteristics to every member of an entire group when any normally smart person would not do that regarding anything (housing always goes up, that's nuts too, right?).

Freedom of speech, for me, you, and trav.

(and if trav gets too fucking weird, how ever will I get him in my gunsights if you insist on driving him underground?)


Fri, 09/02/2011 - 21:53 | 1628728 Maniac Researcher
Maniac Researcher's picture

Your ideas about free speech are a bit antiquated. Hate speech is an altogether different beast - it actually does manifests violence, disenfranchisement, and exploitation in the real world beyond the internet - on both small and large scales. Denial of this observable phenomenon can really only be construed as ignorance - and an apology for damage already done.

I hate to burst your bubble, MsCreant, but just because you haven't been on the receiving end of hateful attitudes, doesn't make them any less real.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:48 | 1608622 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Same with India.............and Pakistan.

The Progressives have MURDERED our system.As the famous Marxist opined,(loosley paraphrased) Give me ONE Generation of your children, and you will be destoyed.

We're living proof.

9 of the 10 planks of the Commie manifesto are IN PLACE in America..

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:55 | 1608863 macholatte
macholatte's picture

Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.
Vladimir Lenin


A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad.
Theodore Roosevelt

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 19:47 | 1610340 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Character, in the long run, is the decisive factor in the life of an individual and of nations alike.
Theodore Roosevelt

Lenin was utterly wrong. As soon as the Soviet totalitarian grip was loosened up, the entire system collapsed and communist ideology became a laughing stone.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:02 | 1608643 reader2010
reader2010's picture

Grades mean nothing, and they can only mean not thinking at all. Eistein didn't get straight As or 4.0 GPA in neither high school nor college. Leonardo Da Vinci, who is generally considered as a rare genius, never did any formal schooling. But, he came up a lot of revolutionary stuff, such helicopters, and deep sea diver suits.  What about examples of Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak and Bill Gates. What really matters is one's independent/innovative thinking out of the box.  Since the ancient times,  the Chinese never studied out of any intellectual curiosity; rather, they studied to pass the civil service exams so that they could make an easy living. 

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:16 | 1608673 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

An interesting response, good for you reader2010.  Indeed, the civil service has been an easy job for centuries. I hope more China experts expound here on this.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:55 | 1608861 apartofthings
apartofthings's picture

DoChen: I will try to give some more background, forgive me if some of this is a little dry, but there's a great deal of history to cover. I've done my best to make it concise and conversational. I'm working from memory here so any inaccuracies are honest mistakes rather than intentional distortions.

The Imperial Examination system in China began around AD 600, in the Sui Dynasty. It was limited to a small number of people, and the purpose was to test candidates' knowledge of the Confucian classics. The goal was to provide astute and orthodox advisors to the emperor. Rather than being manuals of administration, the Confucian classics are books about moral and social philosophy. The sort of thing you might want people whose primary job is politics to be good at. Those chosen were closest to the Emperor, so were some of the most powerful men in China.

During the Song Dynasty (960-1279) the system was massively expanded, and was used to fill more and more positions in the imperial administration. The emphasis was still on the study of the Confucian classics. This started to cause problems, because as I said, the classics were not manuals of administration. Plus, the larger number of applicants and recruits meant that more levels of examination had to be devised. It also meant exams had to become more standardised and questions more obtuse. Since these men were Imperial servants, they were more important than other people, had more power, and were better paid. All on the backs of the peasants and merchant classes.

The rot in this system of government became evident in 1279, when the Mongols swept in and beat the tar out of the Song Dynasty. It is telling that when the new Khans reconstructed the social order, they moved Confucian scholars from the top spot to the very bottom, because they were judged to contribute nothing to society. Ironically, the Mongol period (or Yuan Dynasty) is the source of a lot of great vernacular Chinese theatre, since there were so many out-of-work scholars who needed to eat.

The Mongol Empire finally retreated in 1368, leading to the establishment of the Ming Dynasty. The scholar classes who the Mongols had shut out got back in with a vengeance, as part of the so-called Neo-Confucian movement. Adherence to Confucian orthodoxy became intense. The exams were fully reinstated, and became even more narrow and obtuse.

While theoretically any male could write the exams and rise up in the imperial civil service, in practice the hours of study required to master vague ideas in thousand-year old books meant that the sons of the rich were most successful. It perpetuated aristocratic social hierarchy, while having a meritocratic face. This bloated, top-heavy state existed until 1909 when the Imperial system was abolished, but by then it was of course too late, and the Empire fell just a few years later.

This was such a stifling intellectual system because Confucianism is very conservative in nature. It emphasises following authority and never questioning it. In an ideal Confucian society, every person knows his or her place, and accepts it humbly. Children obey their parents, peasants obey their lords. Parents and lords take care of those beneath them in a paternalistic fashion. This is why the Ming Chinese, who at one point had a massive navy, scrapped it: it was immoral to go too far overseas, because then you could not properly take care of your parents.


While this system isn't literally in place any more, a lot of the same ideas are. In China, Korea, and Japan, there is an obsession with entrance examinations for every level of schooling. It is harder to get into high school or university than it is to graduate. Then once you are into a top school, you get access to the next top school or job. So it perpetuates the system, giving the children of the rich the best chance to stay rich. I have taught students in China and seen the kinds of questions they get asked on these entrance exams. They literally make no sense, or test some piece of knowledge so obscure it will never be useful.

There is a copy-paste problem in Chinese schooling, that much is for certain. But this is not secret information, like the rest of Wikileaks' stuff. In this case it is the usual attack on China, an attempt to stir up popular anger in the country against the regime. Recall that Ben Ali of Tunisia, Ghaddafi of Libya, Mubarak of Egypt, and Assad of Syria were all targeted in the same major cable dump. Two have been ousted, and the other two are fighting civil wars. The "leaked" cables were the sparks used to light fires of unrest and precipitate these phony colour revolutions. Wikileaks is a front for the US intelligence community, plain and simple.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:21 | 1608894 reader2010
reader2010's picture

The Chinese are too stupid to understand that education is not about confirming what they already know. It's about proving themselves wrong. It's about taking them to a position where they have not been before.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:41 | 1608915 apartofthings
apartofthings's picture

reader2010, I'm impressed, that is a very well-worded statement on what the true purpose of education should be. As someone who has suffered enough of the American educational system, I also daresay that Chinese aren't alone in their stupidity.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 11:06 | 1609276 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

We are a Potemkin culture. China is now too. We work hard to look sucessful rather than cultivating real wealth: wisdom, inner spirit, perserverance and the ability to solve problems. Nice post and answer.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 12:13 | 1609375 Hulk
Hulk's picture

You are my gura!

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 21:04 | 1610494 caconhma
caconhma's picture

If one cannot read and write, the rest is irrelevant.

There are many facets of education. Education is all about learning, not about indoctrination.

Finally, speaking about Chinese pupils IQ, they are doing exceptionally well attending American schools. My university PhD advisor was a Chinese professor (originally from Taiwan). He was an excellent scientist and a highly-capable manager. He was a Dean of School of Engineering at a major US private university.


Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:53 | 1608928 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Thanks apartofthings for the detailed reply.

A couple of years ago I finally got around to reading a (fairly short) history of China.  The exams were mentioned in the context you describe, though in less detail.


The future heads to us faster than ever.  I will remain attentive.  Interesting times indeed.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 14:26 | 1609604 DCCynic
DCCynic's picture

Outstanding, simply outstanding. Thanks for taking the time to do that for us.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 15:30 | 1609736 apartofthings
apartofthings's picture

Of course. Happy to share.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 16:06 | 1609808 who_farted
who_farted's picture

Wonderful analysis!

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:11 | 1608773 duo
duo's picture

I went to Chengdu to train some Chinese engineers about 5 years ago.  Driving around Chengdu, it was interesting to see the front of all the buildings finished with neon lights, but if you turned off the street, there were concrete skeletons.  Nothing was finished out.

Oh, and the engineers know about what I learned in high school in the 70's.  There is an optical design program that costs $7500 to buy.   They expected to give me to give them a copy.  I said I couldn't do that.  The engineering manager said he would be fired for paying for software...if you can't steal it, you can't use it.  To this day they may be using the demo version taking screen shots like they were then.

We tried to co-engineeer products to no avail.  We essentially built a prototype, dropped it on their desk, and said "copy it", and they did...well.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 09:58 | 1609212 sleepingbeauty
sleepingbeauty's picture

This echos my experience. I worked at a telecommunications company that was desperate to get into China. They were told that if we gave them stuff for free we could convince them to buy our stuff. They took the free stuff and didn't ever buy. I don't have any support for the fact that they copied, but I would say that they failed to grasp that you need to invest in infrastructure in order to grow.

It was like top level people worked at the level of low level bureaucrats. No vision.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 02:55 | 1609021 Taku
Taku's picture

You are spot on. Many of the youths there are smart, well educated (barring 'professional' students) and ambitious. For those that want truth, it is due to their academia. Just as powerful, and even more corrupt than Ivy West. The young learn to adapt and survive within their SNAFU system. Resources per capita for the masses are limited. Given the freedom (if that ever happens), and opportunity, they would be amazing innovators, as I'm certain any people would be.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 09:45 | 1609199 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture


The State-total control authorities determine the correct answers. In USA, a Steve Jobs is allowed to win without following their right answers. Japan, not much different; learn the "Right" answers quickly in else but the Natural Laws of science or lose for life.

A recipe for mediocrity Sold to You, mate.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 13:03 | 1609440 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I experienced the cut-and-paste phenomenon first hand. I occasionally write research papers on fluid dynamics. I picked up a paper once on a similar topic written by a researcher or student from a Chinese University. There were passages in the Chinese paper that were lifted word-for-word from one of mine. They didn't even bother to change the wording around a little bit.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 08:59 | 2296900 jaffa
jaffa's picture

An academic discipline is a branch of knowledge which is formally taught, either at the university, or via some other such method. Each discipline usually has several sub disciplines or branches, and distinguishing lines are often both arbitrary and ambiguous. Thanks for sharing.

Mon, 08/29/2011 - 00:19 | 1610866 Party with Berl...
Party with Berlusconi's picture


Mon, 08/29/2011 - 00:21 | 1610875 Party with Berl...
Party with Berlusconi's picture

Your broad supposition comparing the US with China is a bit misleading. The Chinese do value education, what they know if it, and in the context of what is Chinese education. The have enormous discipline and an unrelenting sense of hard work. The part about brute memorization and cut and paste is absolutely true. Chinese elementary and middle school education completely avoids stimulating creative interests. There are 40+ kids to a class and discipline and routine are the preferred path to success. The "young pioneer" program doesn’t want inquiring minds but rather competent followers. How do I know this? I have a Chinese 11 year old, my nephew, living in my house. He has been here for 4 years. I have observed him, his friends, and his school. I have been to the school and have talked to the principal and teachers. Even in creative pursuits, the arts for example, the discipline and routine are tantamount to creativity. It is just beginning to change, in urban centers, with limited internet sharing, among the more educated college aged students and a few individualist Illuminati.

Mon, 08/29/2011 - 01:12 | 1610957 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

There are 40+ kids to a class...


There are 55 to 72 kids to a class. 40 would be a VERY small class.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:22 | 1608468 max2205
max2205's picture


Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:47 | 1608473 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Timmah the Keebler Elf (Chocolate Chip Graham Cracker Czar) will unleash another Cash Management Bill (CMB) this week to save the world from doom. Twinkle Toes-in-Chief will tell the peasants to grease up & support the new progressive job plan.

Pure comedy. Enjoy the game




Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:27 | 1608475 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Speaking of  " Leaks" Cognitive dissonance...   Well written post.


   Apps. for the post/facto recognition ( been busy)...

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:28 | 1608478 john39
john39's picture

Wiki leaks has already been outed as a mossad psy-op.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:20 | 1608567 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

It may have started as Mossad, but it's now in partnership with other western intelligence agencies.  Expect the non-western 'leaks' to intensify and virtually replace all else.

That aside, I do agree with this assessment on China.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:11 | 1608774 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Your mom is a Mossad psy-op.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 04:55 | 1609073 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

and your mom is USSA psyops, what's your point?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:29 | 1608479 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Arne Duncan, the Broad Foundation, and Michelle Rhee are feverishly working to upgrade the American public education system to match China's.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 04:58 | 1609074 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

3 Bitches for 50 "dollars?" Can't beat that with a stick.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 09:52 | 1609204 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture


Don't fail to keep them below decks so they they can feel the drum beat and row properly or die poorly. One's own drummer is not an option in their win. Please bring extra available women, mother China shorted the mix, oops! Wiki means work hard for the good of the State and don't disturb the workers with the smile of one who dreams their own rules.


Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:32 | 1608481 oddjob
oddjob's picture

 Copy and paste education , how very Spalding like.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:31 | 1608484 nmewn
nmewn's picture

...(many "solar" longs would have been delighted to know this well in advance of the recent decimation in the Chinese solar stock space)...

My condolences to anyone who followed Leo the Solar Pied Piper down the emotional bagholder path.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:39 | 1608495 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Great point!  Reminds me of a movie made in ( 2008) !!!      All of the { Fissile Material}  Was rendered, to save the EARTH!

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:09 | 1608550 nmewn
nmewn's picture

There were some "good guys" that stayed on his ass...akak being the most aggressive. Many thought he was over the line, whatever that line winds up meaning when someone has their hand in your back

Leo was a product of his enviroment. A shill for statism.

Let the record show that our own akak, the tenacious akak, on a sometimes lonely thankless task, dug him out of the ground for all the world to see.

And not for five bucks, he rendered his services for free ;-)

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:01 | 1608647 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Buck up ! LITTLE CAMPER,

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:11 | 1608661 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Buck up

I prefer something that holds its value throughout time...chasing pieces of individual flotsam down the drain doesn't much interest me anymore ;-) 

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:19 | 1608676 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1 nmewn, you are correct that our buddy akak aggresively dug Leo out.  akak is also a great troll buster re gold.  He is a treasure to us here at ZH.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:29 | 1608812 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes he is. Props have to be delivered when due and I'm encouraged to see I'm not the only one with a long memory.

I'll admit to hitting Leo pretty hard myself when he first announced his..real or contrived...medical condition, knowing how this is used on suckers to unload a market position. But I backed off out of not knowing for sure. Akak to his credit, did not.

The final straw for me was his statement that a government budget is not the same as a family budget. The complete cluelessness of this statement removed all doubt for me.

Unlimited governmental debt was the postulation any and all paper currencies superior to everything and everyone by decree, savings and labor become subservient & valueless to his new paradigm when taken to its conclusion.

And of course the lives affected by all this remained a complete abstract to an emotionally driven was a very odd meltdown.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:44 | 1608918 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

2 sides a trade do make.  Albiet I respect you!

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 01:13 | 1608945 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I missed Leo's "melt down".   Didn't follow him all that much anyhow.   But the accolades to Akak are certainly in order.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 15:23 | 1609715 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Your avatar seems to be shifting, subtly. I like the old one because it is cute and looks like he is up to something. But if the new one feels better to you, you should go for it.

Edit: Still shifting. I can say the new one looks kind of silky and majestic. Each is a good choice. I am merely attached to the old one.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 20:41 | 1610452 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If one wants to believe him, he admitted to seeing two or three shrinks even as he continued to dispense financial advice here. He clung to the failed Keynesian theory like the warm statist blanket that it is.

Basically, a centrally planned money laundering operation that only enriches the few.

As was his style, he was against people taking personal control of their savings, preferring the time honored method of pilffering other peoples labor on the sly. When I pointed out a 30% loss required a 60% gain to get back to par...all I got was crickets.

He was a shill for all the things that are wrong with the world economy today.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 16:51 | 1609918 trav7777
trav7777's picture

akak is a mossad psyop

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 20:44 | 1610456 nmewn
nmewn's picture

LOL!!!...of course.

Paranoid...much? ;-)

Mon, 12/12/2011 - 10:29 | 1969839 jaffa
jaffa's picture

Establish your eBay presence by selling a few items. Don't take the plunge without valuable positive feedback. It's likely that your buyers won't be in Africa, but Europe, America and Asia so it's essential that you come across as trustworthy and honest. Thanks a lot.
thesis writing services

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 12:15 | 1609380 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Leo's averaging down used to make me cringe...

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 13:34 | 1609487 cbxer55
cbxer55's picture

Speaking of Leo, he has been absent for awhile. His last post was 24 days ago. Wonder if this is why? Not that I miss him or anything, just saying.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 07:09 | 1993560 jaffa
jaffa's picture

Originally from Japan, the species was imported into the UK and other countries as a garden plant grown for its large leaves and attractive flowers. It has escaped cultivation and is now present all over the UK as well as large areas of the United States. Thanks.
dentist Peterborough

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:31 | 1608485 Slow-choke-off
Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:40 | 1608496 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Interesting thing about learned scholars in that part of the world.  In Russia, it seems to me about 80% of the adult population has higher education, because if you graduated high school with average grades, you got a full scholorship.  A couple of years ago they changed the policy.  Now, you've got to be a standout student, or have your parents pay the high price.  Why the shift? Russia ended up with to many people who can sit behind a desk, and too few people with trade skills.  So they are now trying to build up their manufacturing infrastructure, and kick the French and German agricultural firms out, going back to doing their own farming.     

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:44 | 1608499 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Russia is corrupt.  The rubble is oil based.  I have tried to do business there.  Great people, and corrupt PUTINITES.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:50 | 1608512 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Yen Cross,@20:44

Well at least it's almost UNIVERSAL, just about all countries have GREAT people(general populations), but everyone's Gov is screwed beyond belief.

Just imagine if ONE,just one where to start to get it right,my how they would soar with wings of eagles.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:13 | 1608559 Drag Racer
Drag Racer's picture

One did and it was 'railroaded' 100 years ago. funny how well that term fits...

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:59 | 1608642 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Water seeks its own level, always.

This will get resolved one way or the other. Either one labors for themselves first or labors for another first. If its the latter, we know historically what happens next.

We've still got time to run and get some more popcorn...I'm buyin!!! ;-)

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:51 | 1608632 IMA5U
IMA5U's picture

how are da hookerz in russia?

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 10:51 | 1609260 russki standart
russki standart's picture

IMA5U I think you already know the answer, but for what it is worth, they are incredible!!Best looking professionals in Europe are usually russians or ukrainian girls.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:22 | 1608679 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@ Yen Cross and DosZap,

YES re Russia being a terrible place to business, unless you are BIG and CONNECTED.

Lil ol Bearing ain't putting NOTHING into Russia!

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 09:57 | 1609210 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture


It's a great country America. Rich or poor they don't shoot you for starting a spiritual group that the state does not control.

Sure you can die poor in America, but you had a chance.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:47 | 1608503 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Well, if they do the following, and they are starting to, they will get their worst fears and  nightmares fulfilled,the cause of the FALL of America.(and speaking of cutting and pasting), sorry.

in order to grow its service sector from the current 30-40% of the economy to a US-comparable 75%, many structural shifts will have to take place. And while such shifts "are already happening to some extent in places like the Pearl River Delta", and "Chinese companies increasingly setting up factories overseas" the biggest impediment is China's "terrible educational system" which "promotes copying and pasting over creative and independent thought."

The one we have all heard a million times,

Insanity is doing the same thing,over and over again, expecting different results.

This SERVICE econ crap is what murdered our economy, and is removing us from the world stage as the ONCE great America................DOA.

China is surely not that stupid...........if so, bye-bye.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:12 | 1608664 pain_and_soros
pain_and_soros's picture

That is pure propoganda BS and/or stroking American ego, who want to believe they still are the best, brightest, economic power around.

The part about moving to a service economy is nonsense - they know that moving manufacturing offshore (to China) & relying on the FIRE econcomy in the US is what killed America economically...

Anyone who believes this crap is simply another dumb American.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:26 | 1608687 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

pain, I do not know of you are correct on this.  YES, the Chinese students we see over here are very bright.  But, there are TERRIBLE problems in China, demographics is just the start.

Yes, I agree we have our own big problems here.  But, I would rather be HERE than THERE.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:39 | 1608910 Skid Marks
Skid Marks's picture


That part destroyed the credibility of the whole thing for me. So I'm thinking that the guy who said it was bullshitting the guy who wrote it or the guy who wrote it just made it all up.

So figure this..... it was misinformation sent "upstairs" to the next level people who then write reports that go "upstairs" to their superiors and so on until it ends up creating foreign policy.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 09:17 | 1609168 The Real Fake E...
The Real Fake Economy's picture

yeah this "leak" is garbage.  the whole service industry needed in China is ridiculous.  next they'll "leak" Chinese also need to have 0% home mortgages, 50kUSD/year tuition, tens of thousands of credit card debt and drive big gas guzzling SUVs in order for their country to have a real shot.  

on the education front, more and more Chinese locals are starting to do MBA programs as a means to earn more money immediately and in the long term.  their motivation isn't to learn creative ideas, work in teams etc,  its strictly to earn a higher salary.  

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:11 | 1608775 midtowng
midtowng's picture

In China's case it actually makes sense. Their GDP is less than 40% domestic comsumption. It an afford to go up.

  It's when you get to the insane 70% range, like America, when it becomes a suicidal joke.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 20:49 | 1608508 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Good GOD Tyler I for got to give mention< to all the ( Scholars)?...>

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:00 | 1608530 Dragonsgrace
Dragonsgrace's picture

My thinking is that we encourage them to go to a 'service economy" we will take the manufucturing back, send them endless steams of useless plastic crap and buy Yuan bonds to finance it all.  I am sure we could excel at dildo making again.  Does anyone think that will work?  

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:01 | 1608538 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Long dildos.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 12:17 | 1609386 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Ambiguous much?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:51 | 1608633 monoloco
monoloco's picture

After President Bachman gets those pesky minimum wage laws repealed, abolishes the EPA and OSHA, and cuts the unions off at the knees, we'll have plenty of jobs. To bad they'll all be in Chinese maquiladoras.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:36 | 1608542 Manthong
Manthong's picture

“normal process undertaken by students when writing as essentially collecting sentences from various sources without any original thinking.”

That will suffice in putting them ahead as long as their espionage stay top shelf and the west’s vigilance stays bottom drawer.


Sun, 08/28/2011 - 03:05 | 1609022 macholatte
macholatte's picture

Confuse Us Say espionage unnecessary if one can purchase secrets from enemy with campaign contributions.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 15:04 | 1609678 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Ain't that the truth - and the campaign donation fire sale was on in unusual force in the 90's. 

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:06 | 1608544 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

It only takes a few bad apples to ruin a basket. Let's look at how your government is controlling you.

*****Google Killed News Archive Search*****


Google pays record $500m DoJ fine over drugs ads


Google pays fine and restricts the flow of information.


The multi-nationals that borrowed money @ ZIRP really don't have wealth. In fact, the money they borrowed is only backed by nothing.  If the 98% of the global community decides to exit the ZIRP(QE3) game, the magicians pretending to hold wealth will become instantly poor. A new war will not change or force conformity. Watch out for a HFT virus. The MSM will blame China, unfortunately this creation is homegrown.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 03:16 | 1609027 macholatte
macholatte's picture

Let me see if I understand what you are saying...... the mega corp that has a gazillion space bucks (really a zero interest loan) pays out half a gazillion space bucks to da boyz at da top as bonuses so da boyz convert those space bucks into USD, AUS, CHF, EUR, CAD, gold, silver, cars, boats, hookers, homes, islands, planes, off shore bank accounts, etc. but it's all an illusion. They're just pretending to be wealthy so when the mega corp goes belly up they....... they what? ... have zero liability and get another job.

Or did I miss something?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:07 | 1608546 kito
kito's picture

Well, if China's education system is worse than that of the US, we can probable stop worrying about the dollar relinquishing its reserve status.


i think most of us are worrying that it will continue to be so--after all, isnt that the heart of this countrys problems?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:14 | 1608560 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Education reformers in the USA seek to emulate China. See a problem there?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:28 | 1608691 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Call on me!  Here, over here!  Yes, I see the same.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:07 | 1608763 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Very good, Mr. Bueller. Would you like to expand on your answer?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:57 | 1608865 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Uh, 42?  Gold maybe?

Or maybe the right answer: private school.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 09:18 | 1609167 Marco
Marco's picture

It's a mixed blessing ... sure outsourcing loses you jobs and knowhow, and forces a growing number of people into wellfare eroding social values (although if you REALLY wanted you could use central planning to guarantuee full employment, for some reason the US would rather put people on wellfare than use it's deficit to fund jobs though).


On the other hand, the US has artifically supressed oil prices ... and nothing compares to cheap oil as far as boosting an economy. Without reserve currency status the median living standard in the US would/will plummet.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:09 | 1608551 jo6pac
jo6pac's picture

This is good news how will Amerika fight it's wars? How will Amerika keep the sheep in the fields of plenty?

I'm the left

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:28 | 1608585 billwilson
billwilson's picture

Of course their education system sucks.

If you try to learn Chinese, you quickly learn that you must memorize. There is no other way.

Guess what, Chiense students, because of their language are good at memorization. It then becomes "if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" issue.

As a result you get a system where "passing tests" (essentially regurgitating what was memorized) gets you ahead ... and making mistakes is "forbidden". So much for learning from your mistakes ... or even learning to make mistakes and recover from them. As a result you do not get risk taking or independent thought.




Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:48 | 1608924 infiniti
infiniti's picture

Thank god, somebody gets it.


Chinese employees are insanely bad at solving new and unique problems, providing quality customer service, managing (anything), and committing themselves to the organization. No creativity, no 'bigger picture' thinking.


I deal with them every day. No thanks.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 16:56 | 1609925 trav7777
trav7777's picture

they're awesome at stealing things tho

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 02:54 | 1609020 Stack Trace
Stack Trace's picture

Precisely my experience with Chinese Engineers. They wait for me to pioneer the concept then they take what I have done and copy it.

I worked beside a Chinese PhD a few years ago. The guy depended entirely on my leadership and work product. I would develop solutions and he would incorporate them into his bag of tricks. Not one time in over a year did he create a single solution that wasn't already provided to him in another context.

The funniest thing was when he was fired. He refused to accept it and continued coming to work for a week. In the end security walked out the door. Was strange situation and I think management was trying to be sensitive.

The last day he was in the office he told me how I was the only other than himself that was any good and even said I had taught him many things.

The sad part was that I felt I taught him little though I tried and he was by far the least capable member on the team.

Granted our team had a PhD Chemistry, PhD Physics, PhD Mathematics, and him with a PhD Computerr Science. I only have a BS in Computer Science and BA in Philosophy but lead the group. Goes to show you that experience and other skills can get you places where education itself doesn't.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 10:47 | 1609255 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

Precisly my experience as a trainer of indian engineers and working in a group of Phd's in various disciplines who were from china and russia (the russian was the most creative and had a fantastic sense of humor though).  However I must annotate that statement with the observation that the American engineers in one organization had the analysis skills of toads, they were fascinated by their paychecks which were way above what their level of skill and experience warranted.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 06:00 | 1609089 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Sounds like the french educational system to a dot comma! Jesus, the mandarin culture of jacobin france was invented in china!

That figures. Central planned and elitist meritocracy. "Learn by rote and never make a mistake as its forbidden"; you get a bad note for being original, off the beaten track!"

Lol, vive la France des Enarques! (That is the Topp bureaucratic school to beat all schools!)

Fortunately the french have an individualistic culture since the revolutio that allows them to be self assertive, now cowed down. Its shows in their general culture, not so much in their economic culture which is state controlled to a point its  painful.

The Internet revoltion will help solve that down the road all over the world, freeing individual entrepreneurship, provided the State does not clamp down on Internet freedom.

Mon, 08/29/2011 - 03:43 | 1611064 proteus
proteus's picture

we have the same thing in US, just to a lesser extent.  dumbing down is implied in the very term "education."  we don't even have a word in the English language that i am aware of to describe what education *should have been*.  the entire concept is outmoded and has to be abandoned before the planet can transition to a post industrial era - but teachers don't know how to think - they only know how to copy - it is a vicious circle.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:33 | 1608592 Tapeworm
Tapeworm's picture

In my area the school board always looks for a credentialed educrat to be superintendent of schools.

 They always choose a hidebound thing that has a PhD in "Education" and demands to be referred to as "Doctor Such-and-such".

 The level of knowlegde from entry level employees is now so low that my business is paralyzed for decent new hires. The sandardized tests that I use from 40 years ago are a strong indicator as to whether the prospect has any chance at doing this work. The base cutoff level of 40 years ago is never approached by high school graduates that had four years of academic courses including four years of math.

 I am down to one guy that really can maintain the equipment that supports the rest of the employees. He knows the score and constantly threatens to quit. Without him I would have to do all of it myself, so by then I would just get out. (BTW, most of the equipment is under fve years old and needs little maintainance.) None here has any clue on CNC machine controls and how to set up a control with the parameters to make it work best.

 The employees need me far more for basic maintainence than I need them. That is a bad situation for them.

 A shop with a few real electro-mechanics guys can make it. The scrap employees that cannot figure out anything deserve to be dumped. If they do not care enough to take advantage of free tuition and books from me then why should I care about them?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:34 | 1608699 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

That is really bad news for you Tapeworm.  And it is REALLY BAD news if that is being replicated all over America. I do not have the figures, but I believe math competency is going down, despite all the blather about "education".

If I were young again, I might take your math test...

And you are offering them free tuition and books.  Ugh.  Bad sign.


Thanks for the anecdote.  I will be looking for more of this kind of news.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:33 | 1608593 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Unlike Japan, Communist China has no brands..........Communist China's new air craft carrier is an old Soviet Union relic.........The recent pentagon report about Communist China military build up was a joke.........more fear mongering from the "MIC"........


Cheap Communist Chinese products are destroying economies in every corner of the world.......... 

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:38 | 1608607 reader2010
reader2010's picture

The Chinese education system is brilliant because it can churn out IP chieves at one million per year.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:49 | 1608625 IMA5U
IMA5U's picture

i like that wikileaks dood


Sat, 08/27/2011 - 21:51 | 1608628 reader2010
reader2010's picture

I just came back from a tour trip to China recently. I can tell you almost all Chinese people that I talked to in cities, from college professors to gabage collectors, sincerely believe the shit, which is "structural shift in the population from rural area to urban centers" will always mean that more housing price appreciation is baked in the cake. The only exception is that the rural peasants that I talked to don't believe that lie. 

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:36 | 1608701 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture


reader2010, you are on fire today.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:24 | 1608682 Boop
Boop's picture

China will remain a "poor country" for years to come...


Noam Chomsky agrees, American Decline: Causes and Consequences:

In the 2011 summer issue of the journal of the American Academy of Political Science, we read that it is “a common theme” that the United States, which “only a few years ago was hailed to stride the world as a colossus with unparalleled power and unmatched appeal – is in decline, ominously facing the prospect of its final decay.” It is indeed a common theme, widely believed, and with some reason. But an appraisal of US foreign policy and influence abroad and the strength of its domestic economy and political institutions at home suggests that a number of qualifications are in order. To begin with, the decline has in fact been proceeding since the high point of US power shortly after World War II, and the remarkable rhetoric of the several years of triumphalism in the 1990s was mostly self-delusion. Furthermore, the commonly drawn corollary – that power will shift to China and India – is highly dubious. They are poor countries with severe internal problems. The world is surely becoming more diverse, but despite America’s decline, in the foreseeable future there is no competitor for global hegemonic power.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 22:33 | 1608696 reader2010
reader2010's picture

Poor country is defined in terms of per capital, such as GDP per capita. Overall, it can be a heavy weight due to its population size. 

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:22 | 1608794 SMG
SMG's picture

Until it's food supply gets cut off.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:09 | 1608767 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Chomsky +1

Yes, I did say that out loud.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 02:15 | 1608935 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

I'm curious?   Put / b`elow ,

or call> topside?

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:57 | 1608936 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 In a French Bar?

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:16 | 1608786 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Very interesting.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:25 | 1608799 reader2010
reader2010's picture

I've never been to Chengdu. But, here is what Urban Dictionary says about it:


An inland Chinese city where foods are numb and spicy, girls are horny and sexy, guys are chain smokers/heavy drinkers, and streets are dirty and stinky. It's the capital of Sichuan. It has the largest number of teahouses, bars and whorehouses per capita in the world.


You can take care of your appetite and dick at the time in Chengdu."


Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:37 | 1608818 Ramboy
Ramboy's picture

Funny, for decades chinks were called nerds, brainiacs, comp sci engineers, computer geeks.  Now they're dumb cos ZH says so.

One has to also wonder why half of Apple's San Francisco office is Chinese H1B imports

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:54 | 1608930 infiniti
infiniti's picture

Because the Chinese are as bad as Apple. I don't want anything to do with either. Brainless, controlling, monotonic.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 01:01 | 1608941 reader2010
reader2010's picture

Steve Jobs & Co really love to employ those Chinese slaves, don't they?

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 01:21 | 1608949 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Well, Ramboy, with well over a billion people, SOME of them are bound to be smart.   How dumb does one have to be not to see that?   They can't ALL be cookie-cutter stupid.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 15:00 | 1609669 Ramboy
Ramboy's picture

Sounds like society putting a premium on intelligence now vs. last few decades when if you were smart you were discounted as a nerd.  So yeah, now US media says Asians in general are dumb.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 11:49 | 1609188 Marco
Marco's picture

The fact that expats making best use of western opportunities education excell has little relevance to the reputation of natively educated Chinese in China ... expats are the cream of the crop, and western education if you chose to be selective of where you go and apply yourself is still the best.

Sat, 08/27/2011 - 23:39 | 1608825 dvp
dvp's picture


Concerning, "The average tenured Ivy League (not to mention MIT and NYU) professor has already done enough damage to the US - it is only fair that they destroy China next," don't confuse non-economists with economists.  Yes, economists are ideologues parading as academics, but other academics are actually legitimate--except for political scientists who want to copy economists.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 02:40 | 1609015 defender
defender's picture

Have you actually looked at the stuff that they are coming up with?  The only good scientists that they have were hired after they had made a name for themselves, and then they promptly got lost in their ivory towers. 

Publish or die has killed the host.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:21 | 1608895 Religion Explained
Religion Explained's picture

My two cents: It is not the education system, it's the mind of individuals, i.e., genes. I'll let you chew on that for a while.

See if you can tell me how to find the answer on how to solve the lack of creativity in a race of people.

Oh, and if you think this is a racist statement, then let me counter with: you're an ignorant fool that needs an education in cognotive evolutionary psychology. May I suggest a little Steven Pinker to start your education ...

Bottom line: China is just a big Japan, but less refined. Creativity is not going to happen, not on the scale necessary to set them apart in any way, educational system or not.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 08:14 | 1609130 frobn
frobn's picture

Perhaps genes do play a part however the environment is as important or more so. The prevailing economic theories are buck. The education system at present, all over the world, is junk in, junk out. The main economic fallacy in the US and China is that goods take priority over people.

Mon, 08/29/2011 - 03:47 | 1611067 proteus
proteus's picture

agreed 100% that China is Japan 2 size XXL.  but if China can match Japans per capita GDP @ 1+ billion population it will rule the world.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 00:53 | 1608913 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Is it me?


     That ( FUCKING  FALLING short}  THING?  Sunday open and  looking @ charts. Trade smalls.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 01:24 | 1608953 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Got news for ya, my man.   Everybody does not trade currencies.   Well, except fiat for food when necessary.   Your market oracle calls are useless to some of us.   Like... who cares.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 02:13 | 1608997 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Rocky / XAU has to be converted into ( Cabbage)?


Sun, 08/28/2011 - 13:06 | 1609447 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

The currency step in "conversion" can be sidestepped (and often is).   I can trade a silver dime at my local farmers market for half a bushel of nice corn or other veggies any time.   Currency is just a convenience (imposed by TPTB who mandate it for payment of taxes) that can be skipped in everyday commerce.   You are talking your so-called book and perhaps should be looking past the trees to see the forest.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 04:47 | 1609067 valuetrader
valuetrader's picture

I need to disagree with the conclusions of the article. Firstly, Ph.D.'s from the USA moving to China is very bad for America. I am not talking about Keynesian money printing economists here. I am talking about engineers and nuclear physicists. With them will go technologies and ideas that America should keep to itself rather than transfer to its competitors. The other thing that I think the article is wrong about is the Chinese educational system. The Chinese have shown that hard work is a large part of what is needed in order to become good at anything. With the US educational system focused on baseball and soft sciences, the majority of the students hardly learn anything. This attitude can be seen in so many TV shows like ''Saved by the bell''. The Chinese have moved forward and many kids there actually study and focus on education and learning. Not all of them will turn out to be good students and only some of them will become very good at what they do but this is the case always. Together with the average and hard working but unable to think creatively students there will be some exceptional ones and they are likely to help China advance. We are already seeing some of this happening. My comment on the exam system is that while it is not ideal, it is surely the best way to select the top students and definitely beats a selection process that lets athletes attend universities even if they lack basic writing skills. To claim that the exam system favours the rich is complete nonsense. While the rich may have more free time to prepare for exams or pay for private tutors, poor but talented kids are likely to succeed at exams and come on top. Generally speaking, the US educational system at the high school level is one of the worst out there and doesn't provide students with the skills needed to succeed in the modern work place. Sadly, on this front I have to say China 1: US 0.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 06:23 | 1609098 scratch_and_sniff
scratch_and_sniff's picture

10-20 years is a bit of an understatement, the standards of education in the west probably wont ever be matched, if so it will be several generations down the line. Its all about tradition, we have a tradition of educational excellence in the west, its not going to be easy to trump. Not just that, but the availability of an excellent education for everyone, regardless of background, still exists (even i got a decent education fuck sake, i did math at a Russell group university and i was thick as two shore planks, and broke). If i wanted to get back into education tomorrow, i would have immediate financing, somewhere to live, and plenty of offers to decent universities...thats an unmistakeable trait of an great society, one that gave the world just about everything it depends on to make progress...from the interweb to Hamiltonian mechanics, the telephone to the shotgun, the flugelbinder to relativity, aahh fuck whats the point, you all known the rest, i.e just about everything.  

(its a shame i wasted my education, but thats another matter)


Sun, 08/28/2011 - 08:57 | 1609156 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Every Bubble meets a Pin eventually. China and Australia are massively overpriced right now by any measurement. Price to income....rental name's Bubble Territory.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 09:37 | 1609191 bill1102inf
bill1102inf's picture

Ok, so the average dumb american is smarter than a chinese PHD recipient.  Figures.

In 10 years China will lead the world with LFTRs and the endless energy they produce while we are still paying exhorborant amounts of $ for our energy.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 13:09 | 1609449 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

They only have to be smart enough to reverse engineer what we produce, or require technology transfers as a part of setting up manufacturing facilities in China.   A process that American industry seems only too willing to do.   Historical precedent:  The transistor was developed in the U.S. -- and look what Japan did with it!

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 10:04 | 1609218 halflink123
halflink123's picture

Production and manufacturing are central to a prosperous economy, not "service".  This is all baloney.



Sun, 08/28/2011 - 10:29 | 1609240 JamesBond
JamesBond's picture

thourghly enjoyed this essay.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 10:54 | 1609263 Woodyg
Woodyg's picture

I've always said the most dangerous people in the world are People with an Ivy League MBA.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 19:17 | 1610266 Dirt Rat
Dirt Rat's picture

The most dangerous people in the world are People with an MBA. FTFY. That they would have to study something that comes naturally for others is very peculiar.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 11:09 | 1609283 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Made me laugh.

Nothing more than covering for the angles. And open angles.

Innovation has led to more consumption of resources. Well educated, innovative, 150 IQ population would only lead to more and more consumption of resources.

For the Chinese, the issue is simple: where to find the resources to grow their service economy?

As the world resources are mostly already mapped, no much growth, no much additional inputs to expect for new resources to appear in the system?

Outsourcing? Yep. Possible but will mean that the jobs moved from overseas result in unemployment overseas. How would US citizens welcome that? Answer is easy.US Soccer moms support the idea that losers' jobs (manufacturing and all) are shipped overseas, after all, losers are meant to lose but if her college educated darlings could no longer find a well job because someone else can perform the same for cheaper in China, woooo, totally another story.

As the Chinese can not secure the resources necessary to grow their service industry, well, one thing has to be blamed: and that is education.

Again, the Chinese could have well educated, innovate, 150 IQ PhDs, this kind of population only means one thing: more resources are going to be consumed. New ways to consume resources are going to be developped.

The question is simple: where are the resources to fund such population's way of life? Without that answer, everything else is just an attempt at kicking the can, masking the reality.

So yep, education is poor in China. Can only be poor. No other solutions to explain well, the consequences of lacking resources to develop a services industry.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 12:21 | 1609392 Gimp
Gimp's picture

There is no substitute for creativity and experience, more and more paper degrees means squat.

I have worked with Indian Software Engineers, very nice people, but none brought any new ideas to the table. Not sure if it is a cultural thing but they just wait for someone else to give them new ideas and direction. I ain't worried about the so called "rise" of India and China. It is all BS built up by people with an agenda.

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 15:03 | 1609675 Ramboy
Sun, 08/28/2011 - 15:08 | 1609685 Mad Cow
Mad Cow's picture

All over the world, the creators are on the endangered species list. The creators are drugged at an early age and the rest are assimilated into the parasitic horde. The manipulator parasites morph the creation into something destructive or sterilize it. Peak parasites bitchez!

Sun, 08/28/2011 - 15:20 | 1609714 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

Feynman had the best explanation when he was teaching physics in a foreign land.

They could recite chapter and verse, but didn't understand what they were reading.

When asked for an example of what they had just read, silence.

He told them to look out the window.



Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!