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YouWalkAway.com: Bringing Moral Hazard To A Deadbeat Near You
Tonight's feel-good story of our time is a desperate stroll through the reality of the US housing market for millions of individuals (as opposed to the hope-driven must-say-something-positive spin the home-builder CEOs have been spewing recently). Notices-of-default jumped 33% in August, a nine-month high and largest month-over-month increase since August 2007 and it is becoming increasingly acceptable to walk away from contractual agreements as strategic default becomes the New American Dream.
Fox Business runs the story: The New Face of Foreclosure: Strategic Defaults:
"There are 3 million to 4 million seriously delinquent mortgages that under normal circumstances would be in foreclosure but have been kept out by procedural delays and paperwork problems," says Rick Sharga, RealtyTrac senior vice president. The recent spike in foreclosure starts suggests lenders are "hitting the restart button" on cases that were delayed by documentation problems such as robo-signing, he explains.
YouWalkAway.com surveyed several hundred of its clients earlier this year, and just 23% said they had previously shirked a financial obligation. "The people we are now seeing are nearing retirement age, who never missed a payment on anything in their lives," says Jon Maddux, co-founder and CEO of the Carlsbad, Calif., firm. "They are trapped. They can't sell or get a modification and they need to downsize or move for a job."
Attitudes toward default have also shifted, Maddux says. "Back in 2008 people were very emotional, very scared, in disbelief or denial," he says. "Now they are simply fed up. It's a very calculated, black-and-white business decision. People feel very relieved."
A more widespread understanding of the consequences of default may be a factor, says Brent White, a University of Arizona law professor and author of Underwater Home.
And an example of the justification - for better or worse:
"I was looking for a way to get back to a larger city, and this was the only way I could get out of this house," says Kessler, who paid $800 to YouWalkAway.com to help guide him through the process known as strategic default.
"I don't feel guilty at all about walking away from the place," he says. "The banks really did it to themselves. They made a ton of money with me over the years. I owned four or five houses. But I don't think I'll ever buy another house. I'll probably just rent until they put me in a nursing home."
So, we have dramatically bad unemployment in the youngest age demographic, middle-age demographics have seen net worth crushed in the last few years and are lucky to have a job, and now the elder demographic is increasingly opting for strategic default. All-in-all, not such a rosy picture (but but corporate profit margins are at record highs).
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Pork Chop Hill [Korea]. Had turks if I remember correct. There was one with Robert Wagner too I think. Actually, there were a quite a few about Korea. The Bridge at Toko Ri or something with Mickey Rooney, again if I remember right. It had a helicopter in it [fairly new at war then]. WWI there are many movies, you just haven't been looking. Philippine Insurrection is a tough one, I don't know of a movie off hand, although I will tell you my stepmother's brother was stationed there before WWII started and died on the Death March after the Japs came.
Edit: found two - from 1898, one of T. Edisions movies, "Troop Ships for the Philippines".
"Battle Flag of the 10th Pennsylvania Volunteers, Carried in the Philippines" 1899.Seems like you are wrong my friend, you just didn't look.
True I didn't research it. It's just the memory of a boy who grew up in the 50's and 60's loving old war movies.
Now list all the WW2 movies and compare counts with those you listed. I'll still stand by my 99% claim. The exceptions prove the rule.
I wonder if those Philippines movies were reflected this contemporary view:
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/harry-wilmans/
(I think that was from Spoon River, but I'm not sure.)
Great poem, thanks for sharing. I think the two movies I cited were part of the "Gung Ho" go get them movement. The poem was obviously from the "I went, and war was hell until I died". I get that. Not too many combat veterans in the real world praising going to war, even those without physical wounds, from any war. I knew many people who suffered in quiet from the effects of combat in WWII, all gone now, RIP.
I agree that there were a lot of WWII movies, but 99% is a slightly off. I grew up in the same period, I think there were so many movies about WWII because there were so many things that happened all over the world in a short period of time. Easy storytelling that people could relate to. Everyone had a family member that served or was invovled in some way.
Now if you are looking for something that was overlooked, try victiims of the Nazis [concentration or labor camp prisioners] that were not Joos. Although the numbers exceeded those of the Joos, I would say over 99% of hte movies are joo centric. Example: more Roman Catholic Poles died in the camps than joos.
Don't forget communists (there were many in Germany), POWs from Eastern Europe, and gypsies.
If you lived in Austria you could go to jail for saying such things, or even publishing historical sources. It's like denying the virgin birth in medieval Europe.
If expression of an idea is forbidden, it must be powerful and/or true.
My point about the movies is that we Americans are conditioned to see ourselves as good, no matter what we do. If you doubt that, just turn on John Wayne and Henry Fonda winning the war.
If the Nazis did it, it was bad. If we do the same (torture, say), it's good, 'cause we're good. Got it?
my daughter learned in school last year andrew jackson was our worst president
Sue the school. no really. He was a Judge.
AJ is an "echo" that will happen very soon if our nation (I am US vet) is to survive in any form similar to its roots. There is a particular echo I very much hope to hear in Jan 2013:
"The treasury to you gentlemen, is closed" - President Paul
Fuck all the rest; we got farms, we produce damn near 10MM barrels a day, and we have the best trained/equipped military in the world. If our men/women in uniform have a leader prepared to WIN instead of OCCUPY, things are very, very different. All must understand the spirit which suffered a staggering loss of 2% of the total population 150 years ago whilst we quarreled internally. Should the family of the US unite in a genuine war objective, this will shake anyone in their boots.
I say this of all armed conflicts; when the mothers send their sons off to war there is no mercy. This is when war is as just as it can be.
God have mercy on us all.
Regards,
Cooter
They own TV and if you watch it - they own you and the rest of the serfs.
In the interest of balance, you may want to familiarize yourself with The Indian Removal Act and the Trail of Tears.
I made a deal to pay my mortgage and my bank still holds it even though it is backed by the FHA. I am sure my bank expected me to default like the other first time buyers so they could get paid. Instead I am sending them a check every month. I've always paid my debts but I have been smart with credit.
I pay for others mistakes and I just don't know how much longer I can do it. I know I will have to carry 90% of my generation and I'm not going to do it. If people like me decide to stop contributing then the game is over. Should I walk away? I just don't know.
I will if the irresponsible get another pass. I can't keep feeding those who don't deserve it when I have my own kid to feed.
You're being pretentious - unless you are paying 90% of your generations debts, you're just paying what you owe and agreed to pay. Don't pat yourself on the back for complying with the terms of your contract and don't attack others if they give back the collateral(house) per the terms of their contracts.
Honoring a contract at some level ultimately comes down to a moral choice. You are not free until you realize you are not tied to a contract, regardless of what you write on paper or shake someone's hand to. You choose the fate each and every day you choose to follow that contract. Walk away. Burn a bank down. Do whatever you feel like doing and you are free. That is your right as a human being.
My word of warning: Be prepared for consequences due to the belief systems of others. Some people believe you should be punished for burning down banks...
Honoring a contract, is that an oxymoron?
I know the term "void contract" is an oxymoron--a contract held to be void does not exist under law. In other words, although two parties may have come to an agreement, it is not recognized as a legal contract. Perhaps the simplest example of a void contract is a contract formed in which one party agrees to perform an illegal act. A contract that is illegal in part may be void in that respect.
The fact is that two groups are to blame the Lender and the Barrower, is that about right?
What is not right is the lender gets a physical asset out of all this, and the barrower gets a road to walk down, hopefully a bridge is in walking distance.
Walking away and giving a lender that secured asset is often part of the loan agreement terms. It is a secured asset. I propose that people continue to do what they do ... dump cement down drains, take copper from walls, sell appliances, or even burning the house down before walking away. Make it worth less to the banks before you walk... the banking cartels actions have fucked and continue to fuck even us hard working, still employed, financially sound people. Direct action against them is warranted.
Suck a dick shill boy!
I don't want to come across like an ass (I will) ... but ...
What ad agency/bank do you work for?
Every home owner should make decisions IN THEIR BEST INTEREST. A mortgage is a SECURED loan, meaning the bank gets the asset if terms aren't met. Simple. Now if the bank loaned more than the asset was worth, that isn't the borrowers problem as its the bank's problem. This is TYPICAL in commercial real estate where folks regularly make hard number business decisions about whehter to pay or not.
In all cases, if things are really bad, a lawyer to represent those interests is appropriate and some forums (such as ZH) don't really factor in at all because a home owner has professional legal advice.
Comprende vu?
Regards,
Cooter
Read Gonzilo Lira and then just say Fuck it.
Sometimes you just gotta say "What the Fuck!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQXKOxGhMuA
I agree that sounds pretentious. You're not doing anyone a favor or carrying a burden. The system has changed, banks get handouts and bailouts on bad bets, people default on bad debts.
The core root of the problem is people are hit on hard times and have to make tough choices to survive.
The core root of the problem is sin - sin of greed, sin of lies, sin of broken promises (remember, a mortgage is a promissory note, a promise to pay) and walking away from a mortgage whether financially prudent is still morally wrong. These sins, gentlement, are the core root of the problem.
If you have any type of deed on your house ,then it's not yours , it is the banks and your mortgage is your rent . The banks do not tell you this, so this is a fraud on ther part going into the contact which makes it null and void . So walk away people we owe the bankers NOTHING.
"...walking away from a mortgage whether financially prudent is still morally wrong."
Morals do not exist in a vacuum, but rely on premises. Your comment shows that you continue to believe in the premises of the TBTF banks. You are defending the morals of a group who have acted for the past thirty years with the ethics of a sewer. Time for a new moral code.
Morally wrong?? The mortgage loans are recourse loans...they are backed by colleteral...the house. If you don't pay, the bank takes the house. THAT is the deal. There is nothing immoral about walking away. Recall the original meaning of deadbeat:
1. Defeated; also exhausted. For example, That horse was dead beat before the race even began, or, as Charles Dickens put it in Martin Chuzzlewit (1843): "Pull off my boots for me ... I am quite knocked up. Dead beat." [ Slang; first half of 1800s]
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/deadbeat#ixzz1YaSdYMneI dont believe in debt and have never gotten in to it on any kind of big scale. I have never owned a house (actually you dont own it till its paid so thats interesting). I have never owned a new car (or more like pay payments on a new something until you pay it off and then its not new).
I have never racked up any kind of credit card debt.
My bills are low savings high, investments doing good and for the many years I was looked down upon and forced to laugh at myself with a chuckle while my friends were in their homes and in their Lexus Im looking gooooooood. All of them have sold everything. All of them are in apartments now with used cars and mountains of credit card debt and other debt they are still being crushed with.
Meanwhile I will take a beer out of the fridge I bought and paid for and go see some boxing or UFC on my impossably large wide screen HIDef TV that I paid for and tomorrow I will wake up and see what the market does.
Damn it feels good to be a gangsta ....
No, you're high on your crack pipe, choking the chicken over robo's avatar.
You're the smelly oddball that 'your friends' thought had developed bipolar and now, because they are being robbed of their hard gotten gains by the predatory class, you are happy....
You go on with your ice t fantasy if u want.
A little indebted, are we?
His friends tried to consume more than they could pay for even tomorrow. How are they "victims" of the "predatory class"?
I'm going to borrow an old Karl Marx statement, slightly changed for the times.
A (promissory) note is a weapon with fool at both ends.
Simple. No dollars come into existence except through credit. Everybody is a victim. The whole "economy" has been fake for 100 years. Usury.
"Saving" is a form of "modesty". "Spending" is a form of "extravagance".
You seem to have your wires crossed. I grew up in a very unique situation. I knew people who were dirt poor and I knew people who were wealthy. Very interesting.
Modest folks don't like folks to know they have money.
Extravagant folks want folks to know they have money they don't have.
Which are you?
Honest question, don't mean to be an ass ... just killin' time on this thread after a long day.
Regards,
Cooter
Haha, me too, killin time with a beer in my hand.
I liked ur comment on war, nowadays it seems they fight war with one hand tied behind their backs, no doubt wary of goddam human rights lawyers.
I am the first generation of my family not to have fought in some war somewhere from the Crimean to Vietnam and I feel that war should be total war, no questions, no fuckstick trial by media or kids getting court marshaled for being in a shithole for the plutocracy.
I was trying to start a punch up with the koala guy just for fun,not because of much else, I get bored of people thinking they are smart because they don't do nothing except watch tv
I grew up very poor but am now comfortable, I think we forget how the little things can give us the most pleasure.
There is a great pleasure in doing a job to the betterment of your community and the greater good. We must remember that,
The Aussie aborigines have a word 'dabologogabong'. It means 'the
pleasure of looking at your work and reflecting on a job well done.'
Why don't us civilized folk have a word like that?
we don't have a single word that i can think of, but i'll bet the germans do!
we call it pride of workmanship or satisfaction in a job well done, 6
what the hell, as long as it ends in "bong" we can understand!
you guys enjoy your beers & fun, ok?
peace
Cooter, we used to call that being "nigger rich" back in the day.
Very good CrazyCooter. My wife is the E and I am the M. I was the M for years because I didn't have a choice. Now it is a way a life. My wife can't act on the E because I am the brakes. However, she has been waking up, esp. this mortgage thing, us without one, and everyone she knows neck deep.
No you watch TV that is used to control the sheep/serfs. You enable and ENPOWER your overlords by watching their shit and lies in HD. You have no clue.
Nice job Nimrod. Typical serf - listening to the slop lies and ENPOWERING them with your HD TV. Dumb f**k.
High def TV - you are one of them. You cannot connect the dots. Dope.
And no - I am not in debt, not in risk of losing my home and could pay it off today.
Your paranoia against TV is becoming annoying. Next you propose burning all books because lots of them are pure propaganda.
I can still switch and choose the channels myself, mute the ads, or view timeshifted DVR and skip over the ads altogether, or watch DVD or BluRay discs.
I watch less than 400 hours carefully chosen TV per year, I'm willing and able to pay for that, and that doesn't make me a serf.
Truth be told, I think the old boy could benefit from a little Sesame Street. I seem to remember that on the day the show was "Brought to you by the letter 'E'", they used the word "EMPOWER".
Ah, the Rabbit and the Hare. Love that story.
who the fuck would pay $800 to that scam company.
i know everyone hates the banks, but when you have folks recommending people bail on the their comments i love that the same dumbass asses that bought too high, overextended or did something else stupid are now enginous enough to deside they should bail on their home.
The politicians don't give a crap about walking away from those they're supposed to represent, and the bankers walk away strategically all the time.
Now, please, if you'd be so kind to explain who we're supposed to get our morals from, again?
Treat it like a business decision. If it makes financial sense, I see zero problem with walking away. The banks signed the agreements, it's not your fault their risk management was crap.
well, key its quite clear
you are a tax developted comminity asset
you had tax dollars spent on your education and interal disciple instilled in you.
i.e, stand in line, dont talk back, do your work, pay your bills,dont be late to work, imean school, i.e, insillingself disipline, for if the system do this, they couldnt control populous with so little assets.
breaking laws, bad, not doing what your told,bad going bankrupt, bad
i learned in college' what happens when most of society has follow one set of rules, when the elites dont, what happens?
anarchy and chaos. makin' sense overthere now?
Forum comments/referals, particularly the well travelled stuff like ZH, are advertising gold.
Folks busted out many posters, not to pick on anyone, for insane/stupid opinions, but those opinions influenced the ignorant. Forums are a marketing arena, but the rules/guidelines are not writ yet.
If a stalwart ZHer, steps up and says X and Y is a the way forward and the community falls in behind, it has a hell of an impact on little guys trying to keep up.
If ZH got behind Leo and solars, who all would have been raped on Solyndra?
It's like that, except every ZH poster you see is some scum bag trying to fuck you out of your savings. Not really, but you need to think like that. You need to learn to listen to/follow those that make the most sense.
Except me. I am a red neck from Texas, with an engineering degree that moved to Alaska because I want to be surrounded by 1k miles of nature and 30k people when the shit hits the fan. Oh, and I want you to register republican and toss a vote for Ron Paul in the Primary only. Save your real vote for a president. That comes later.
Nut job? Sure. Stupid? Nope.
Regards,
Cooter
duplicat post
duplicate post
Stop stuttering!
As usual.....there is no such thing as "Strategic Default" - fuckers. Its called walking away from your obligations. Its called borrowing money when it was easy to borrow and you thought it was a good fucking idea and then when everything changes for the worse you walk away.
Its NOT a strategic default! It means you have made a personal decision to NOT pay what YOU OWE. I don't give a shit if you got sucked in a bought a house because a scumbag banker helped you buy it. You KNEW you couldn't afford it.
The name should not be youwalkaway.com it should be ipaymydebtsonlywhenitsuitsme.com PRICKS.
There are all kinds of rules that are going to be made as a result of your fucking actions...DEADBEATS.
This is why we are totally fucked as a nation.
And don't fucking start with me. I know that the bankers are just as bad or worse than you deadbeats.
when the rules of the game changes for the worse you walk away
there fixed it for you........
Another way to fight the power is to not buy more than you can afford, and pay off your 30 year in <15. That fucks with their instruments not quite as badly as a default - and you get to respect yourself in the morning.
When the shit goes down, you don't want another entity having a claim on your future labor. Hyperinflation or not.
I'm not going to make the 30->15 conversion, but you're talking my strategy. The $75k house I bought here in California in 1998 is paid through July 2017 according to the amortization schedule. It wasn't an investment, it was bought as a home.
Never screwed with the note, never used as an ATM, never refi'ed...just keep paying $100 or so more than required each payment.
Had a period for a while when wife wanted to get all the stuff others were doing, but she now, grudgingly, begins to see the light.
I did the 15 in 7, finished in 2003, and man it feels great.
This is so true. A good way to fuck with bankers that is totally legal and respectable.
I once took out a ARM with a ridicuous teaser rate for the first year. On the 13th month I paid the whole thing off.
Currently Im underwater in my home because of a simple financial bottom line choice. You simply take this whole moral imperative out of the equation.
It made sense financially to stop paying our mortgage.... so we did.
It makes sense to accumulate PM's ...... so I do.
If the banks and the system are fraudulent in general at what point should I feel morally obligated to abide by the terms of said fraud?
The answer is never.
If I dont approve of murder but you're okay with it and shoot me in the face, I still end up in a pine box, right?
I have to tell you....those PMs I sold you are tungsten. Sorry.
It made sense at the time to just take your money.
When everybody is cheating everybody else, at what point should I feel morally obligated to be honest?
The answer is never.
Good post.
This whole discussion boils down to moral relativism not "taking morals out of the equation, pure business decision" as some would like to fool themselves into believing. And with the relativism come rationalization - the cycle of cheating becomes dysfunctional.
I suspect the irony is all these idiots that bought the $800,000 house that they couldn't afford because the bankstas fraudulently forced a loan on them (and they all knew the house would be worth $1.5 million in three years) are the same people that, had the house actually increased in value, would be having lunch with the same bankers (now good buddy bankers) so that they could discuss how they could pull money out of their homes to make some more great real estate investments.
The bankstas and the loanstas are two sides of the same counterfeit, tungsten coin.
They placed their bets, they lost - so it must be someone else's fault.
I agree with your sentiments Jason but cheer the defaults. They are making housing more affordable, making lenders more prudent, and elimination deadbeats from the pool of potential buyers. If you view a home as a consumable and not an investment, this is all good.
And hurthing those demonic banks even more! It will speed up hyperinflation in this country, but it will come at some point anyway.
Jason stop with the guilt already. It's a business decision. If you don't want to pay, you turn over the collateral. That's the deal. That's how it's written. Get over it.
And when someone decides not to pay you for whatever it is you do because after you've finished doing whatever it is you do they decided that it really wasn't worth the agrred upon price - strategic default - it's just a business decision.
You'll get over it.
That's exactly right!
I get my collateral back and we are square... just like the contract stipulated.
I won't do business with that person again, but I calculated the risk and assumed it before I made the loan.
Next time I will be more careful. (Unless the Taxpayers will guarantee it)
what collateral?
I'm not talking about loaning money as a banker. I'm talking about you or anyone in business - a dentist, a house painter, one of innumerable people who actually do something constructive for a living.
stevezee - we're talking about a secured loan, a mortgage. What are you talking about?
You called strategic default a "business decision".
So we're talking about business decisions.
Is it morally wrong to make business decisions that are agreed to a priori by the affected parties? Agreed to in writing?
No, it is not.
You sound like someone who's been handed back some kited collateral.
You make it sound as though the bankers and the borrowers agreed to make the decision that the borrower would default in the case of a housing market decline. What the banker and the borrower signed was a legal agreement that contained remedies in case of default like most contracts do.
So did the borrower do anything illegal? No.
Did he do anything immoral? Maybe.
We have many types and instances of implicit contracts in society. We have much business we all do in our daily lives where there is no written contract.
We can file civil suits if we feel we have been wronged. A woman sues McDonalds for a burn caused by spilled hot coffee.
Is it legal to do so? Yes
Is it immoral? I think so.
Its all legal. And we have scum bankers, scum borrowers, scum lawyers, and scum litigants all operating within the law. So who loses in all this? Who pays the price?
BTW, I don't make mortgages or have any 'kited collateral.' I do real work for a living. But since you brought it up you sound like someone who hasn't paid their mortgage in a while.
"You make it sound as though the bankers and the borrowers agreed to make the decision that the borrower would default in the case of a housing market decline.."
If the banker knew that it wasn`t a matter of `if` but `when`, then yeah, the understanding was implicit.
Thanks for spelling out so plainly what you think is immoral stevey. You know, I`m pretty certain that the royalist sycophants and lackeys didn`t do too well in late 18th century France either... you might want to keep that in mind.
Hard to pay a mortgage on an upside down house with no job because we bailed out banks.
it is a business decision you pompous assclown. it's called breaking the terms of a contract. corporations do it all the time. recourse, non-recourse, whatever, lending institutions agreed to the terms, if the buyer chooses to break those terms the buyer suffers the consequences. whether or not you believe the consequences to be adequate is irrelevant - this is the current environment that buyers and sellers do business in. what the fuck is your problem? horribly upside down and still paying your mortgage?? who's the fucking idiot here???
don't hate the player, hate the game.
What money? The imaginary printing press money?
U.S. v. Thomas 319 F.3d 640
Quote Paper currency, in the form of the Federal Reserve Note, is defined as an "obligation[] of the United States" that may be "redeemed in lawful money on demand." 12 U.S.C. § 411 (2002). These bills are not "money" per se but promissory notes supported by the monetary reserves of the United States.Unfortunately, that is entirely circular vaporware. Notice that NOWHERE in any of the elements of this is there ANYTHING that has ANY value. The entire modern system is an absolute, complete, utter, total, 100% fraud. The only promise is a promise to "pay nothing of value"... as in "overt fraud and theft".
Actually, it's tactical default, but stategic sounds better.
Banker Bourne, some people have just reprioritized who they will pay first on their income is cut due to bank creating this buble. If someone loses their job in a 2 income home they say well this house has lost 100k so it will be the first to go, then they will pay for cards, etc first. Get off you fucking high horse, its called an economic business decision.
Totally wrong, for more reasons than I have time to enumerate. The down payment and house secured the loan. That means, if you (an individual) or a corporation walks away from such a loan, the loan agreement already protects the lender by automatically signing over the house (which actually belongs to the lender until it is completely paid off, at which time it belongs to the state and any homeowner association that might be involved).
The fact is, the ENTIRE real estate industry is organized crime, and what are called "loans" are NOT loans - the account of the property seller is credited with digital-debt-units by the bank/lender that are created at zero expense out of thin air. That is not a loan, that is counterfeiting and organized crime of the highest order.
So people, stop paying and enjoy your home for the 2 or 3 years it takes before they ask you to leave. Oh, and when they start the process, be sure to REQUIRE they produce ALL the original documents, and make sure they have every last i dotted and t crossed, because they're involved in endless fraud on that end of the deal too, and they might back off and let you stay indefinitely... if you seem intent on forcing them to produce ALL relevant documents and require them to be done LAWFULLY.
Finally, convert all paper wealth of all forms into physical goods (gold, silver, platinum, rhodium, guns, ammo, seeds, you-name-it) and wait until the whole system totally flies off the cliff and then collapses and burns.
Ignore the liars and morons who claim you have ethical obligations. That's like saying you better not jaywalk while trying to escape from nazis - it is simply an absurd argument.
PS: I say all this even though I lived frugally my whole life, never took a loan of any kind, never owned a house, warned everyone I could about the bubble from 2003 to 2008, and have no personal gain from defaults. I only hope that someday the economy might heal if the RICO real-estate and bankster predators totally go down in flames.
Er, no. They have the right to walk away, and they use it.
If I write a business agreement with Donald Trump, and he finds a way to exploit it, he will. And somehow, you seem to think the peasants should hold business ethics in high regard, when EVERYONE at the top don't give a shit.
Naive much?
So you're answer to the problem is to join 'em - become Donald Trump's mini me.
Please send me your business card so I make sure to avoid you,
And your answer is to bend over and it take it.
The elite loves you. Never change.
No asshole - the answer is I never participated in the whole fucking scam from either side.
You did. Its you the elite love. And now your fucked just like all these other idiots that are encouraged to strategically default. Yeah that's right - they are going to find that in the years to come they are strategicaly crushed. But they were fucked anyway buying some $800,000 home they couldn't afford - fuck 'em, fuck the bankers, and fuck the whiners.
Oh noes, someone says bad words about me on the internet. And for bonus points, it's some moron who jumps to conclusions, considering a) I'm not a resident of the US, and b) I don't have any debts whatsoever.
Try grasping the simple fact that the banks signed the contract. They explicitly agreed to let the homeowners walk away, if they felt like it. But the media has apparently brainwashed you to believe you shouldn't capitalize on your rights; rights you effectively paid for, in form of higher interest rates, or higher fees.
Apparently you can't read. I didn't pay higher interest rates, didn't engage. And whether you are in the US or not matters not - you can be part of the problem as you are.
So go fuck yourself with your pompous Donald Triump, banksta mentality.
You appear to be the one who can't read. At no point did I suggest you had engaged. You do however fail to grasp the fact that home owners paid for a right, to which the bank agreed, and which you now claim moral outrage for said home owners taking.
But hey, whatever floats your boat in moral outrage land (sponsored by Bank of America).
Escapekey - love your work! ;-)
Actually your first post implied that I engaged but no matter - all your strategic defaulters will be even more fucked after they default with assholes like you as their mentors. You fail to grasp that in your short-sighted "strategy" you miss the bigger picture and are part of the problem yourself.
Fuck -em they'll get owned and then in their next "strategic move" come after you.
But it's not the seller getting stuck. It's the facilitator.
If banks didn't make mortgages, imagine what life in this country would be like? Okay, times are bad and everyone got caught up in panic buying.
Suddenly all you have to do is take the key to your house back to the bank, and you're home free, so to speak..
It's the Homestead Act in reverse.
And a touch of monkey see, monkey do.
I am awaiting your tirade on commercial real estate where this is the norm (for decades) because property owners make business decisions. If the numbers don't work, they dump the property on the bank (via a corporation).
Fuck tard.
If you are ass deep or under water on the mortgage; get an attorney and folllow the legal advice.
If you take your legal/finacial advice on ZH, you really need a lawyer representing you.
Regards,
Cooter
imagine you bought 1000 shares of AAPL for $12 when the dot com bubble burst and you called your broker today to sell them at $412 and your broker told you that the seller had walked way from the sale and took the shares back and you still had $12,000 in your account but not 1000 shares of AAPL.
If buyers can walk away from sales, why can't sellers?
Apples and oranges.
Besides, in that example you're making a cash purchase for shares. Easy clean transition assuming no margin buying.
What about CIT? They went bankrupt, fucked the long time holders, and a month later IPOed and took that cash to clean up their books, talk about a Cleveland steamer!
Brother, you don't get it - it is a secured loan. They don't pay, they lose the collateral. That's the contract. Where do you have skin in the game?
To me, it's like when the 20 year old girl down the street has her corolla repossessed when she loses her office job. I ask myself, what dumb ass buys a new car when they are starting off in life? They need to learn a lesson, as does the lender. I fail to see how it is my problem.
'I owned four or five houses. But I don't think I'll ever buy another house.'
these old baby boomer coots, they think they can't ever sell for a loss
my ma wouldn't take the hit in the initial stages of the bust when i said 'sell' and now my goddam inheritance is down another 20%.
i was going to use that money to go to Sang Bang for some choo chee... i'm filthy.
you da man, tonite, 6!
you better drive man; slewie thinketh UB too fuked up to sing!
that poor guy on the "crack pipe" skrppy_k, has only been a zH for 2 weeks and has less than a doz posts and runs into big_duke on his second bottle of sambuca, here!! wheee! gotta love ya both!
if our mothers only knew...!
Gonna b a big one this weekend slewie, I'll look out for u and we'll talk mashed shit
Just pay your mortgage in Zimbabwean Dollars.
I dunno.... a lot of gloom and doom out there, but ever try to buy a short sale or foreclosed property at a discount? Easier said than done. Speculators abound more than ever as long as free money is flowing. REITs, banks will continue to do OK until that changes. And to the guy that walks away - who cares, they can buy another place pretty easily.
Why would you want an additional discount on a short sale. The short sale is the discount. Smart investors know this and buy them up because they can now generate a rental income and be profitable.
My son tried to get a deal 3 years ago. The banksters don't know how to maintain property nor do they know market value, at least around here. It was cheaper to purchase a home without problems. Of course, we did not take the RE plunge in value like other places.
Corporate profit margins are at a record high due to mark-to-unicorn profits from dollar devaluation.
There...fixed.
"mark-to-unicorn!"
Yes!
Mark-to Unicorn.....tremendous, thanks for that.
Fuck these boomers. I hope the housing market seriously, seriously gets crushed in the next year. Why? Low housing prices will be good for the USA, and certainly good for young families and the next generations.
I tire of the wealth transfer from young to old. These goddamn boomers sitting in their overpriced stucco boxes, just waiting for yet another government bailout, or some dolt to pony up $600k plus for some depreciating piece of shit. As if these damn boomers don't get enough in SS, Medicare, etc.
Welp I could easily pay cash for a house, but I won't. I won't buy a house until I see total capitulation, with these deadbeat morons booted. While the banks are at fault, boomer dopes who took out these skyhigh loans share a big part of the blame.
So let the housing market crash another 50%. Let it crash hard. Make way for young households, who can afford a low-priced home and have plenty of cash each month for investment and spending in the economy. In the long run it will be fantastic for the country, as the bad debts and overpriced real estate is vaporized, and stable, income-producing, tax-paying households thrive in a lower-cost environment.
Boomers, you fucking blew it, and the egg timer is up. Housing - done. Medicare - done. Social security - will be cut. All of it = good.
LMAO!
You are exactly right, from a 'justice' standpoint.
The only flaw in your logic is that the younger generation will not earn what their parents did.
There is no justification to earn $75 an hour to sit on a forklift at Gov't motors ... the subsidy just comes from the rest of the young workers. When they're paid $15 in Japan or India to do the same damn thing, there's a reckoning 'a comin ...
Crash is the right word, but it will only arrive when some of these pussies finally spit out some truth for a change.
People like Rogers and Soros and Buffet have been saying for years that global labor costs will level out, as in US down, emerging up. So, the exultant Gen-Xer pounding his chest will have plenty of time to work for less pay.
Kind of on a tear tonight ... simple question ...
In the long run, will producers (young) eat the consumers (old)?
I kind of assumed this outcome, after a messy bit of turmoil. Intellectual thoughts are extensively pondered.
Regards,
Cooter
You won't be young and healthy forever. Your kids will be nipping at your heels trying to slide you into the wooden box for a dirt nap before you know it. Don't beleive all the bullshit propaganda u read, there's a lot of boomers but most ain't rich and most of them paid the taxes to pave the roads and build the schools you were educated in.
Nobody exists in a vacuum. we are all in this thing called life together. we can help each other or we can play lord of the flies.
I don't play the arrow game.
I like the comment, so I am saying so.
I feel, going forward, the greatest value is in (1) family and (2) community. Surround yourself with both and ... how can you go wrong ... unless you all go horribly wrong together.
Regards,
Cooter
Can I have the conch a moment Piggy?
The difference is the prior age brackets got into the ponzi scheme early enough to benefit. That isnt the case for the up and coming generations.
They arent going to sit idly by and pay for previous recipients of government's largesse.
They will leave the US in droves and take their ingenuity, sweat, intellect, and drive with them.
I'm a boomer and I'm with you.
The only problem I see with your rant is there are some boomers out there that were not part of the problem. They'll be okay by virtue of their way of life. However, the knuckleheads you refer to as boomers, as part of their superficial way of life, managed to spawn a clueless, almost worthless generation of losers who even eclipse their idiot parents in stupidity.
I suggest you align yourself with those people of any age group who don't live the life style of corruption.
totally agree, which would suck since i paid off my house....but I intend to live here so fuck it. High end continues to move, but the low end is stuck. Prices coming in would be one thing but what about incentives?? Someone buying entry level around 100k is still looking at 500-600 in tax and fees before mortgage. How about a 50% 5yr tax break for low end buyers? That could begin the clearing process. I hate to be reasonable at this late stage of the game. That would be a direct injection of cash in the system, unlike a cash for clunkers since this may make it harder to game it. The sick part is the govt would reject it due to lack of reveunue for the govt which is only slightly more stupider than solving ALL our problems by raising taxes on the ultra-rich. If you are going to create digital money, why not let it seep into the system rather than flattening the fucking curve.
Sequitour,
Yet, I am sure that you will be happy to inherit the $500,000. + from your Boomer Parents.
Or, maybe that is why you are MAD, it is because YOUR Boomer Parents did not save and are BROKE.
If you're underwater $100K, you won't break even in 10 yrs, $150K, in 20 yrs.
Only a dumbass stays. If it's the wife holding on, get rid of her.
Great advice. If you are underwater, seriously, fucking dump it. Dump it now. It's only going to get much, much worse as banks scramble for king dollar and start to ramp up clearing out shadow inventory.
It's already happening in California.
And this is good for the country and the econonomy. Short term pain, long term gain.
Fuck all homeowners who paid stupid money for overpriced shitboxes. Yes, this means you. Any moron could see these homes were vastly overpriced (including the scores of people in 2004-2007 who kept telling me to "buy" "buy" "buy." Most of them now = bankrupt. Fuck them.
Told my ex not to buy one of those shitboxes for $815k at peak in 07. Told her to rent.
Fucking so-cal allure: what a joke.
Can't get half the $815k for it now.
Glad not to be on the hooks for it...
LOL sheeple and their money are easily divided.
And WHY did you marry such a sheeple in the first place? She was probably very hot...
True and yes.
A wise man once said never finance a depreciating asset.
So he never paid anything to any woman? (joking of course)
New rule. Always let the wife win the house in the divorce....ALWAYS!
I wish.
Note and deed are not the same thing. Half doesn't count.
Regards,
Cooter
"Only a dumbass stays. If it's the wife holding on, get rid of her."
Repeated for emphasis.
Bikeman
Maybe just get rid of her, mortgage or not.
I was underwater by 254K. You know what I did. All of the people hating on folks like me are idiots too. When I bought the place, I was not tracking the economy at all. I readily admit I was completely clueless. The place was bought in April of 2005. It's value is not the problem. I was going broke there due to medical bills from my wife having to have surgery a few times (even while insured, the 10-20% I owed added up quickly), and I also went from not married and no children to married with four children. It was either try to stay and go broke, or get out while I still had good credit. If I tried to stay, I would have still gone broke. In the mean time my credit would have been ruined, and I might not be able to get a rental home. Then I would have made my family homeless. Fuck that. I was wise and moved into a rental immediately. I did not squat or horde my cash either. The bank can have their property. Hell, it has been in an "approved short sale" process for three years now. The BANK is why it has not sold. They keep refusing to accept contracts, 10 at last count. I'm beginning to think they are holding on hoping prices will increase, or they are delaying short sales to wait for more government bail outs. Who knows. All I know is I'm no longer drowning, and my family will not be homeless. Immoral to walk away? Give me a break.
"I was looking for a way to get back to a larger city, and this was the only way I could get out of this house," says Kessler, who paid $800 to YouWalkAway.com
8 hundy? For what exactly?
Step One: Get envelope.
Step Two: Place house keys in envelope.
Step Three...
Or was air fare to the big city included?
I'm sure after they realized how easy it was to do as you have succinctly outlined that they immediately strategically defaulted on their payment to YouWalkAway.com by cancelling payment on the check they wrote.
Fraud Bankers, fraud borrowers, fraud enablers - assholes upon assholes.
Has anybody seen any analysis comparing the mean age of homeowners with the mean # of years remaining on their mortgage? From just anecdotal evidence (I am a BK attorney) I am seeing a lot of 60 year old homeowners with 20-25 years left on their home mortgages. When they stop working in 5 years, SS income will not pay the mortgage. I think this is a huge, presently unreported risk to home prices (in addition to the shadow inventory)
Good point. A lot of real estate call in shows I hear 60 year olds wanting to refi. Wtf? Pay that note off when your 90?
So add one more factor to yet more foreclosures coming our way real soon now. They say 2014 will be a bad year due to oil supply problems, that could accelerate foreclosures and unemployment.
Great point...the very reason you get up early to read articles/comments. Really appreciate that. What will the reverse mortgage market look like at that point?
goodrich,
Seniors have many options.
1. Sell the House and buy something smaller or in an area that Housing is selling for a lot less. Like moving from NY to North Carolina. Many may have enough equity to pay cash for the replacement home.
2. Reverse Mortgage. Many Seniors can take a Reverse Mortgage, pay the house off and not have payments.
3. If they are unfortunate enought to die the Children will sell the house and pay off the Mortgage.
4. If their Children lose their homes they can come and live with them and split the expenses.
Have to think outside of the Box.
i go to Dontyouwalkawaystayinyourhouseandfight.com
No sense going all Waco on it. Hand over the keys and youlll get cash to walk away.
Interesting website http://thethoughtfultrader.blogspot.com/
Visited a friend of mine in Bend, Oregon recently. We went out to eat and the restaurants were packed, like a starfleet grain cargo bay stuffed with tribbles.
My friend is in real estate and when I asked him how, with the economy the way it is, so many people seem to be doing well enough that they can afford to eat out.
His response: They aren't paying their mortgages.
True story.
I guess everyone is going down the path of "strategic default".
I believe the restaurants being packed. We went out on a Thursday and there were no tables available at 3 different restaurants 2 different locations. We ended up with a pizza.
I don't know how your friend would know that they aren't paying their mortgages. That seems kinda suspect and his own opinion.
Not his opinion. As confirmed by many sources, MILLIONS of people in the US have not paid their mortgages for the last 2-3 years.
Why? Banks don't want to flood the market with foreclosed houses or their prices will plummet. And those houses are ``assets`` on the banks balance sheet. Can't see that going down, now can we?
Not to mention, a lot of these mortgages are in fact FRAUDS because of robosigning. The homeowners can ask to see the mortgage note... if the bank don't have it or it's robosigned, they can not pay the mortgage legally and the bank can't do squat about it.
It could be true. I googled foreclosures in Bend the other night and was surprised to see a number 0f 4 bed 2.5 bath home for sale for less than 70k. Seems like they are giving away homes in Bend. Buyers market if u still have a job.
true story - the realtors in my neighborhood are not even bothering to list the houses? why? because they are buying them *themselves* at discount rates. They are not remodeled and typically go for $350,000. If they're remodeled like sticking lipstick on a pig, they go for $500k and up. So in my little pond, the houses don't get listed for bidding. The realtors who made all the money in the 90s and mid 2000's buy the houses themselves. Then they renovate the houses themselves but do not bring them up to code. Repeat that - the houses get nice tile floors, bigger showers than they had in 1970s, the tub gets yanked, stainless steel kitchen gets put in, but the wiring, the roof beams, the insulation, the support beams, the outlets that should be 3 prong and grounded? get faked out to be 3 pronged and since the city is short on inspectors, it passes. The realtors do minimum work, then turn around and sell it to unsuspecting family who find out that when they turn the switch on in the kitchen, they can't run the playstation 3 in the family room at the same time. I am surrounded by fire hazards. The banks don't do dilegence on city code enforcement so that gets by. And there you have it.
The realtors are trying to force the market up by themselves.
Disgusting.
Finally someone understands how "Flip this House" really works. The minimum upgrades, only visual, and pass to the new sucker. Wash, rinse, repeat.
That is why realtors push the ballon payments, tell you how to "rearrange" your finances to look better, borrow money from a relative on the QT, etc, because they want you in over your head. They know within 2 to 5 years they will be selling that house again. They should all be in jail. And no, I never fell for it, but they sure tried. I went through 5 realtors when I was buying, mostly housewives who try to con your wife using "emotional appeal'. I finally got the most corrupt realtor I saw during my "looking" and had a house in 3 days, after almost 2 years of looking. I knew I was dealing with a crook, and was well armed. Walked away happy and paid off loan in 7 years.
The recent spike in foreclosure starts suggests lenders are "hitting the restart button" on cases that were delayed by documentation problems such as robo-signing, he explains.
Aka they don't care that robosigning is a felony and the mortgage a fraud, they just foreclose? Funny eh?
i had the same thought: "delayed by documentation problems" my ASS!
but check out the fuking MERS website: http://www.mersinc.org/
(paste): Welcome to MERS!
MERS is an innovative process that simplifies the way mortgage ownership and servicing rights are originated, sold and tracked. Created by the real estate finance industry, MERS eliminates the need to prepare and record assignments when trading residential and commercial mortgage loans.
L0L!!! they even list the "cases" they have won on the RH side! apparently, perhaps, maybe, possibly,...the higher state courts have overturned the rulings of the muni & superior court judges who told the fuking banksters and the RE mortgage millers to go:
Eat Shit,
Lay Eggs,
& Die Young!
The 'Boomer' demographic is turning into a Stephen King book...Ya one of the really scary ones! I do believe people are beginning to wake up though it's probably too late for many..Inability to adapt is going to literally destroy people. As a 'screw the system' X'er, I think I can safely say that we as a whole saw this coming! The housing bubble is still playing out and will continue to be a huge drag. As the boomers retire and downsize, who the hell is going to buy overpriced overbuilt across the horizon homes? This feedback loop is what the Fed Heads are frightened of...It was thought at one time that immigrants would change this situation but None of the 'rabbits out of the hat' tricks are working any more...This is a huge problem in all directions because the American populace now becomes an 'experiment' where outcomes are impossible to statistically classify in their models...
We have a huge 'deflationary' front coming up from main street and an unlimited 'inflationary' front coming down from the Fed.. This storm is going to just get worse...
Personally, I would buy a condo in Vegas when an ounce of the shinny stuff can be used as a down payment.. There is light at the end of the tunnel... But it's so dim at present that you would think it's not ever going to appear at all....
Vegas sits in a desert.
Vegas simmers in a desert - what happens when the power grid fails?
I was being sarcastic, a mountain home is much more the climate for my makeup
+1 for arid landscape with almost no water... -1 for Hoover Dam power supply less than 30 minutes from here.
The upside is many boomers have his and her harleys and jet skis purchased with the second mortgage, so they can ride or sail away from that mortgage rather than walk.
The way I understand it is after the Tech-wreck and 9-11... Greenspan thought that using mortgage finance would reignite the 'consumer society' and so far so good... but the mistake the Fed made was that they could stop the 'mania' before it became wreckless. The whole 'pedal to the metal mentality' took over because that's what bubbles do. The Home depot-construction-finance function took over so quickly that pulling the plug became impossible! So many people got cought into the whole bubble psychology that ending it was political suicide.. Lots of dynamics here but the take home message is that every drunk will eventually have to deal with a hangover. This cliche is overused but is so right on!
As far as the real estate agents trying to take the market over and end the downturn! That's a laugh!!! The only thing that will alleviate the housing bubble is time and lower prices. That's it...
It's reckless. Wreckless would be an accident free zone.
Thank you
wasn't it great, symbolically, when greenspammer went to the eccles bldg, today (or yest on the E coast) & "got a haircut"?
Ahem - the Fed never really tried to stop the 'mania'
I agree in the middle-end they didn't...but when it was in the infancy, Greenspan foolishly assumed he had the reigns to the run away carriage...
I believe, maybe wrong?
Yes, just like the Bernank can raise rates within 15 minutes... <roll eyes>
While we're on this topic, is anyone else adding to their dividend stock positions? I continue to acquire shares in utilities, energy, and some consumer staples, etc. Still have my physical as well. Picked up a couple more munis from stable states (note: this means no California, New Jersey, or Illinois).
Bottom line, I have a major problem spending money on depreciating assets, and I am almost compelled to put money into things that pay a return. Screw the Porsche or Ferrari, give me a 50k shares in a utility, thank you very much.
So that right now means housing is a huge "no" in most parts of the country, because ponzi/bubble pricing is still baked in, and we have much further to fall. (Plus I'd rather own a well-managed REIT versus dealing with propert issues on the ground, happy to pay the management fee out of earnings.)
So, anyone else adding to their dividend stocks, utilities, consumer staples, food, energy, perhaps medicine, i.e. shit that people need and at least some semblance of cash flow? Or have you all been chased out by Q.E. 4, HFT, and the eurozone debt problems?
NEM has a gold-price proxy dividend yield. Kind of experimental but it is interesting! Seeing that real rates are negative, good dividend yielders seem a great idea. Good for you!!!!