Mish: "Mass Hysteria"

Submitted by Mike 'Mish' Shedlock

My article Congratulations to President Trump for an Excellent Summit with Putin spawned numerous some I could not tell if they were sarcastic or not.

For example, reader Brian stated " There is zero doubt now that Putin stole the election from Hillary. So much so that she MUST be given the nomination again in 2020. All potential challengers must step aside. To refuse her the 2020 nomination would be evidence of traitorous activities with Putin."'

I congratulated Brian for brilliant sarcasm but he piled on. It now seems he was serious.

Mainstream media, the Left an the Right were in general condemnation.

Numerous cries of treason emerged from the Left and the Right (see the above link)

It Happened - No Trial Necessary

A friend I highly respect commented "There is simply no question that they did it. You can legitimately claim that it’s not important or that there has been no tie to Trump shown. On the Russians’ side, they can say, screw off, we were pursuing our interests. But you can’t take the view it did not happen. It happened."

There is a question who did it. Indictments are just that, not proof.

The US fabricated evidence to start the Vietnam war and the US fabricated WMD talk on the second war in Iraq. US intelligence had no idea the Berlin Wall was about to fall. The US meddled in Russia supporting a drunk named Yeltsin because we erroneously thought we could control him.

They Are All Liars

It's a mystery why anyone would believe these proven liars. That does not mean I believe Putin either. They are all capable liars.

Let's step back from the absurd points of view to reality.

US Meddling

The US tries to influence elections in other countries and has a history of assisting the forcible overthrow of governments we don’t like.

  • Vietnam
  • Iran
  • Iraq
  • Libya
  • Drone policy

All of the above are massive disasters of US meddling. They are all actions of war, non-declared, and illegal.

I cannot and do not condone such actions even if they were legal.

911 and ISIS resulted from US meddling. The migration crisis in the EU is a direct consequence of US meddling. The Iranian revolution was a direct consequence of US meddling.

Now we are pissing and moaning that Russia spent a few million dollars on Tweets to steal the election. Please be serious.

Let's Assume

Let's assume for one second the DNC hack was Russia-based.

Is there a reason to not be thankful for evidence that Hillary conspired to deny Bernie Sanders the nomination?

Pity Hillary?

We are supposed to pity Hillary?

The outrage from the Right is amazing.

It's pretty obvious Senator John McCain wanted her to win. Neither faced a war or military intervention they disapproved of.

Common Sense

Let's move on to a common sense position from Glenn Greenwald at the Intercept.

  1. Debate: Is Trump-Putin Summit a “Danger to America” or Crucial Diplomacy Between Nuclear Powers?
  2. Greenwald vs. Cirincione: Should Trump Have Canceled Summit After U.S. Indictment of Russian Agents?

Greenwald vs. Joe Cirincione

​GLENN GREENWALD: In 2007, during the Democratic presidential debate, Barack Obama was asked whether he would meet with the leaders of North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria and Iran without preconditions. He said he would. Hillary Clinton said she wouldn’t, because it would be used as a propaganda tool for repressive dictators. And liberals celebrated Obama. It was one of his greatest moments and one of the things that I think helped him to win the Democratic nomination, based on the theory that it’s always better to meet with leaders, even if they’re repressive, than to isolate them or to ignore them. In 1987, when President Reagan decided that he wanted to meet with Soviet leaders, the far right took out ads against him that sounded very much just like what we just heard from Joe, accusing him of being a useful idiot to Soviet and Kremlin propaganda, of legitimizing Russian aggression and domestic repression at home.

GLENN GREENWALD: It is true that Putin is an authoritarian and is domestically repressive. That’s true of many of the closest allies of the United States, as well, who are even far more repressive, including ones that fund most of the think tanks in D.C., such as the United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia. And I think the most important issue is the one that we just heard, which is that 90 percent of the world’s nuclear weapons are in the hands of two countries—the United States and Russia—and having them speak and get along is much better than having them isolate one another and increase the risk of not just intentional conflict, but misperception and miscommunication, as well.

JOE CIRINCIONE: Right. Let’s be clear. Glenn, there’s nothing wrong with meeting. I agree with you. Leaders should meet, and we should be negotiating with our foes, with those people we disagree with. We’re better off when we do that. And the kind of attacks you saw on Barack Obama were absolutely uncalled for, and you’re right to condemn those.

JOE CIRINCIONE: What I’m worried about is this president meeting with this leader of Russia and what they’re going to do. That’s what’s so wrong about this summit coming now, when you have Donald Trump, who just attacked the NATO alliance, who calls our European allies foes, who turns a blind eye to what his director of national intelligence called the warning lights that are blinking red. About what? About Russian interference in our elections. So you just had a leader of Russia, Putin, a skilled tactician, a skilled strategist, interfere in a U.S. election. To what? To help elect Donald Trump.

GLENN GREENWALD: I think this kind of rhetoric is so unbelievably unhinged, the idea that the phishing links sent to John Podesta and the Democratic National Committee are the greatest threat to American democracy in decades. People are now talking about it as though it’s on par with 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, that the lights are blinking red, in terms of the threat level. This is lunacy, this kind of talk. I spent years reading through the most top-secret documents of the NSA, and I can tell you that not only do they send phishing links to Russian agencies of every type continuously on a daily basis, but do far more aggressive interference in the cybersecurity of every single country than Russia is accused of having done during the 2016 election. To characterize this as some kind of grave existential threat to American democracy is exactly the kind of rhetoric that we heard throughout the Bush-Cheney administration about what al-Qaeda was like.

JOE CIRINCIONE: Why does Donald Trump feel that he has to meet alone with Putin? What is going on there? I mean, that—when Ronald Reagan met with Gorbachev at Reykjavik, at least he had George Shultz with him. The two of them, you know, were meeting with Gorbachev and his foreign minister at the time. This is—it’s deeply disturbing. It makes you feel that Trump is hiding something, that he is either trying to make a deal with Putin, reporting something to Putin. I tell you, I know U.S. intelligence officials—I’m probably going right into Glenn’s wheelhouse here. But U.S. intelligence officials are concerned about what Donald Trump might be revealing to the Russian leader, the way he revealed classified information to the Russian foreign minister when he met privately with him in the Oval Office at the beginning of his term. No, I don’t like it one bit.

GLENN GREENWALD: I continue to be incredibly frustrated by the claim that we hear over and over, and that we just heard from Joe, that Donald Trump does everything that Vladimir Putin wants, and that if he were a paid agent of the Russian government, there’d be—he would be doing nothing different. I just went through the entire list of actions that Donald Trump has taken and statements that he has made that are legitimately adverse to the interest of the Russian government, that Barack Obama specifically refused to do, despite bipartisan demands that he do them, exactly because he didn’t want to provoke more tensions between the United States and Russia. Sending lethal arms to Ukraine, bordering Russia, is a really serious adverse action against the interest of the Russian government. Bombing the Assad regime is, as well. Denouncing one of the most critical projects that the Russian government has, which is the pipeline to sell huge amounts of gas and oil to Germany, is, as well. So is expelling Russian diplomats and imposing serious sanctions on oligarchs that are close to the Putin regime. You can go down the list, over and over and over, in the 18 months that he’s been in office, and see all the things that Donald Trump has done that is adverse, in serious ways, to the interests of Vladimir Putin, including ones that President Obama refused to do. So, this film, this movie fairytale, that I know is really exciting—it’s like international intrigue and blackmail, like the Russians have something over Trump; it’s like a Manchurian candidate; it’s from like the 1970s thrillers that we all watched—is inane—you know, with all due respect to Joe. I mean, it’s—but it’s in the climate, because it’s so contrary to what it is that we’re seeing. Now, this idea of meeting alone with Vladimir Putin, the only way that you would find that concerning is if you believed all that.

JOE CIRINCIONE: So, Trump knew that this indictment was coming down, before he went to Europe, and still he never says a word about it. What he does is continue his attacks on our alliances, i.e. he continues his attacks on our free press, he continues his attacks on FBI agents who were just doing their job, and supports this 10-hour show hearing that the House of Representatives had. It’s really unbelievable that Trump is doing these things and never says one word about it. He still has not said a word about those indictments.

GLENN GREENWALD: That’s because the reality is—and I don’t know if Donald Trump knows this or doesn’t know this, has stumbled into the truth or what—but the reality is that what the Russians did in 2016 is absolutely not aberrational or unusual in any way. The United—I’m sorry to say this, but it’s absolutely true. The United States and Russia have been interfering in one another’s domestic politics for since at least the end of World War II, to say nothing of what they do in far more extreme ways to the internal politics of other countries. Noam Chomsky was on this very program several months ago, and he talked about how the entire world is laughing at this indignation from the United States—”How dare you interfere in our democracy!”—when the United States not only has continuously in the past done, but continues to do far more extreme interference in the internal politics of all kinds of countries, including Russia.

GLENN GREENWALD: The United States funds oppositional groups inside Russia. The United States sent advisers and all kinds of operatives to try and elect Boris Yeltsin in the mid-1990s, because they perceived, accurately, that he was a drunk who would serve the interests of the United States more than other candidates who might have won. The United States interferes in Russian politics, and they interfere in their cyber systems, and they invade their email systems, and they invade all kinds of communications all the time. And so, to treat this as though it’s some kind of aberrational event, I think, is really kind of naive.

GLENN GREENWALD: It wasn’t just Hillary Clinton in 2016 who lost this election. The entire Democratic Party has collapsed as a national political force over the last decade. They’ve lost control of the Senate and of the House and of multiple statehouses and governorships. They’re decimated as a national political force. And the reason is exactly what Joe said. They become the party of international globalization. They’re associated with Silicon Valley and Wall Street billionaires and corporate interests, and have almost no connection to the working class. And that is a much harder conversation to have about why the Democrats have lost elections than just blaming a foreign villain and saying it’s because Vladimir Putin ran some fake Facebook ads and did some phishing emails. And I think that until we put this in perspective, about what Russia did in 2016 and the reality that the U.S. does that sort of thing all the time to Russia and so many other countries, we’re going to just not have the conversation that we need to be having about what these international institutions, that are so sacred—NATO and free trade and international trade organizations—have done to people all over the world, and the reason they’re turning to demagogues and right-wing extremists because of what these institutions have done to them. That’s the conversation we need to be having, but we’re not having, because we’re evading it by blaming everything on Vladimir Putin. And that, to me, is even more dangerous for our long-term prospects than this belligerence that’s in the air about how we ought to look at Moscow.

Indictments and First Year Law

Mish: I now wish to return to a statement my friend made regarding the idea "No question Russia did it".

From Glenn Greenwald

As far as the indictments from Mueller are concerned, it’s certainly the most specific accounting yet that we’ve gotten of what the U.S. government claims the Russian government did in 2016. But it’s extremely important to remember what every first-year law student will tell you, which is that an indictment is nothing more than the assertions of a prosecutor unaccompanied by evidence. The evidence won’t be presented until a trial or until Robert Mueller actually issues a report to Congress. And so, I would certainly hope that we are not at the point, which I think we seem to be at, where we are now back to believing that when the CIA makes statements and assertions and accusations, or when prosecutors make statements and assertions and accusations, unaccompanied by evidence that we can actually evaluate, that we’re simply going to believe those accusations on faith, especially when the accusations come from George W. Bush’s former FBI Director Robert Mueller, who repeatedly lied to Congress about Iraq and a whole variety of other issues. So, I think there we need some skepticism. But even if the Russians did everything that Robert Mueller claims in that indictment that they did, in the scheme of what the U.S. and the Russians do to one another and other countries, I think to say that this is somehow something that we should treat as a grave threat, that should mean that we don’t talk to them or that we treat them as an enemy, is really irrational and really quite dangerous.

Mish - Six Questions

  1. Is this a trial or a witch hunt?
  2. Do we need to see the evidence or do we believe known liars?
  3. Is Trump guilty of treason? Before we even see proof Putin was involved?
  4. Is the CIA incapable of fabricating evidence?
  5. Even if Russia interfered in the election, why should anyone have expected otherwise?
  6. Has everyone forgotten the US lies on WMDs already?

Irrational and Dangerous

I don't know about you, but I have no reason to believe known liars and hypocrites.

I disagree with Trump all the time, in fact, more often than not.

The amount of venom on Trump over this is staggering.

Adding a missing word, I stand by my previous statement: "Nearly every political action that generates this much complete nonsense and hysteria from the Left and Right is worthy of immense praise."

If you disagree please provide examples. The only two I can come up with are Pearl Harbor and 911. In both, the US was directly attacked.

For rebuttal purposes I offer Vietnam, Syria, Iraq, Russia, Iran, WWI, treatment of Japanese-American citizens in WWII, and McCarthyism.

Greenwald accurately assesses the situation as "really irrational and really quite dangerous."


And if indictments and accusations were crimes, we wouldn't need a jury.


Free This clymer Tue, 07/17/2018 - 07:25 Permalink

No bitch here but you, bulgars!

If the DNC servers were hacked, they are evidence, where is the fucking evidence now? At the bottom of the Hudson River with concrete shoes that's where! Where are the Anwan servers, Podesta's, Wieners....where are Hillary's emails?

Fuck this is getting out of hand. All of the top spooks in the alphabet agencies are complicit, DOJ too, right up to the skinny faggot in the rainbow house!

Getting close to the time for some real fucking justice in America!

Sic Semper Tyrannis

Here is an update to the map I posted yesterday about where not to be, not sure I agree one way or the other, you decide:


And Preper Nurse on wild medcines:



Don't forget to watch "Lifesaving Advice From Dirty Rotten Survival's Dave Canterbury" I posted yesterday, of all watch that.

One way to zero in iron sights on your AR-15:


And my all time favorite Uncle Ted, baby, what an interview, a must watch as well:


In reply to by clymer

HockeyFool Free This Tue, 07/17/2018 - 07:26 Permalink

No matter what Trump would have done, the libtards would be screaming today.

Had he gone in and made demands of Putin and called Putin a lying sack of shit, dems would be screaming "He is risking war! Trump's out of control"

Remember last week when the outrage was a SCOTUS pick?

Remember the week before that when the outrage was "the children?"

Next week it will be something else. This Trump derangement syndrome by libtards is really getting old and not helping their chances of winning any election.

In reply to by Free This

847328_3527 debtor of last… Tue, 07/17/2018 - 08:28 Permalink

trump called out FBI corruption and turned the tables on the Fake news reporter from AP. These trolls keep asking the same question over and over about Russian interference and hacking when everyone knows it was the DNC+FBI+Clinton Foundation.

Trump called them out in answer to the Fake Newsters questions.

TRIGGERED the traitors in MSM and Hollywood and Deeep State.

In reply to by debtor of last…

Laowei Gweilo Miskondukt Tue, 07/17/2018 - 09:35 Permalink

the zeal with which MSN and especially CNN Wolf Blitzer now defend the 'Intelligence Community' as a singular infallible flawless entity is incredible ...


... in the context of the war they waged on that very same 'Intelligence Community' in light of it being wrong about WMD in Iraq


... or the Snowden-gate about it spying on Americans.


most two-faced biased blindly-agended-based manipulative thing I've ever seen on CNN

In reply to by Miskondukt

Snaffew King of Ruperts Land Tue, 07/17/2018 - 10:05 Permalink

yet nobody cries about the massive influence the lobbyists have over elections, not to mention the one sided media which not only was wildly favorable to Hillary---they tried to undermine Trump, Sanders and others at every turn during the campaign.  If Russia influenced any votes, then it was a pittance compared to the amount of influence the American powers waged during this election.  Fucking hypocrites!

In reply to by King of Ruperts Land

inosent Snaffew Tue, 07/17/2018 - 10:48 Permalink

Russian hack? hahaha, as if. Everybody knows it was an inside job. That sort of thing with all the emails is inside -> Seth Rich is a good place to look.


This guy in the article above that says Hellary "must" be given the nomination because Russia 'hacked' the election. Great! I'll be very happy to see that nasty bitch go down a second time, based on the substance of her twisted, hypocritical, and consummately evil character.

In reply to by Snaffew

optimator inosent Tue, 07/17/2018 - 11:57 Permalink

Everyone knows, but what else can "They" say.  During the cold war Russia told the satellite countries the Berlin Wall was built to keep the West OUT.  I once asked a former Eastern citizen if they really said that even tho no one believed it.  His answer was, "What else could they say".  Remember that when you hear the Deep State and its flunkies.

In reply to by inosent

MoreSun optimator Tue, 07/17/2018 - 12:14 Permalink

Putin & others would love to have the power & stranglehold AIPAC (israeli jew supremacist foreign agents) has over our entire government.

But the jew supremacist controlled media never mentions this overt FACT !!

Remove all jew supremacists from all positions of power no matter how small-NOW!

"The Bad War" M.S. King  (banned by jewmazon)

"The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit, and its impact on world history" E Michael Jones

"The Jewish Onslaught" Prof. Dr. Tony Martin

"Host & The Parasite" Greg Felton

"The jews and Moral Subversion" E. Michael Jones

"The Culture of Critique" Kevin Macdonald

"The Leuchter Reports- Critical Edition" Fred A. Leuchter, Germar Rudolf

"The Controversy of zion" Douglas Reed

" The Iron Curtain Over America" John Beaty

"The Six Million Fact or Fiction Sixth Edition" Peter Winter

"The Barnes Review" www.barnesreview.com

You want more of a list, just let me know. We like to get the Truth out.  


In reply to by optimator

Super Sleuth css1971 Tue, 07/17/2018 - 13:55 Permalink

BILL BROWDER: The CIA Asset and Neocon Zionist Who Was Used to Restart the Cold War with Russia




Deep State agent Bill Browder operated at the very nexus of the
U.S. and U.K. Intelligence Communities that conspired to produce
both the fake Russiagate and very real Spygate.”

— Intelligence Analyst & Former Military Officer

In reply to by css1971

janus Super Sleuth Tue, 07/17/2018 - 15:24 Permalink

***It is a tale, full of sound and fury, told by idiots, signifying nothing***

how can we be expected to take any of this shit seriously?

-- avowed globalist-communists opposed to any nation's sovereignty, repulsed at the faintest wiff of patriotism scolding us for our lack of patriotism?

-- political parties, intelligence agencies, the media and much of the judiciary attempting to undermine the democratic process for over a year and a half, delegitamize a Presidency, vilify half the nation, stoke the flames of enmity...now they kvetch about our skepticism?  

no, langley, we do not trust you.  no, media, your agitprop has no currency.

of all the reasons for hillary's defeat, no one ever mentions the fact that she campaigned on a platform of war...WWIII, no less.  starting in May/June of 2016, cankles started pounding the war drums.  in a scenario so stale and overused as to threadbare, the left initiated the process of demonizing russia and russians. 

Trump supporters are not only pro-American, they/we are anti-war.  forever spinning in a manic and frenzied swirl of hysterics, the left often loses sight of this...but as much is to be expected, in that the left doesn't think, they instead parrot the tropes fed to them on a daily basis, forever unable to assemble the fragments of these disparate priorities into a cogent whole.  but if they were able to arrange this mess into coherence, the image would terrify them with its ghastliness.  the left openly and earnestly serves the forces of evil -- in fact, they are the forces of evil.  they depend on the idiocy and credulity of their minions to keep this reality obscured.  fortunately for the left, their supporters are sufficiently dull and benighted to keep the truth forever blighted.  

maybe we should play the victoria nuland tapes again...as a refresher:


we not only interfered with Ukranian/Russian politics, we overtly overthrew a democratically elected government, attempted to provoke Russia to respond militarily, started a civil war in the Ukraine, (downed a commercial airliner in a disgusting FF), funded and trained Nazis and left the nation in shambles.  these are the same people calling Trump a traitor.  these are the same forces who demand faith and fidelity.  

it's gone...no one trusts (((you))) anymore...we know you're nothing but a bunch of bloodthristy satanists...your time is in eclipse, the more you struggle, the tighter the constraints.

"fuck the EU (for balking at WWIII)"  Victoria Nuland, Clinton apparatchik, globalists, communist, satanist, kike.


In reply to by Super Sleuth

SybilDefense inosent Tue, 07/17/2018 - 11:58 Permalink

One question could clear this up:

Mr Podesta, how long have you used "PASSWORD" as a password for your access to the DNC? 

Ons24-%&@yy zfo-%78 - password the day before the hack, changed daily

Password - password use the day of the hack

I can't even buy something from amazon with an account password "Password".  Yet he can control the entire DNC without one security question? 

Trusting the gov since Reagan is laughable.  Thinking Bush didn't create 9-11 is inexcusable.  Simply Believing anything said by Strozck, FBI, CIA, DOJ Clinton clapper, comer Brennen et al is idiotic to the level of drinking koolaid at the church retreat.  It just isn't being done (successfully).

Frogs gonna boil. 

Say goodbye to your Dem friends or help them see the light of reason.  Stupid does not last long in Darwin's evolutional theory.

In reply to by inosent

MrAToZ Snaffew Tue, 07/17/2018 - 10:59 Permalink

This is all good stuff. The left is watching the walls close in and they are truly going ape shit. Trump isn't interested in kissing their ring and all they can do huff and puff.

The Dims have only ever had a few pages in their play book, the corrupt press, public shaming, teenagers, character assassination and blackmail. They will play those sames tactics till the cows come home.

Trump does not appear to give a damn about what the left thinks or does. Right man, right time. Keep packing SCOTUS, keep dismantling. Go Don go. 

In reply to by Snaffew

lew1024 Darracq Tue, 07/17/2018 - 20:18 Permalink

Likewise, we know the names of some of the Mossad agents who assisted in setting the explosive charges in the towers for 9/11. They were the 'dancing Israelis' who were arrested after setting up their cameras before the first airplane hit a tower, whose van tested positive for explosives, who were released by Chertoff (dual citizen of US and Israel) after 76 days, at that time head of DHS, and were later interviewed on Israeli TV, in which interview they stated they were Mossad agents 'sent to record the event'.

We know quite a few of the other names by less direct means, but those will do for a start.

Get the prosecutions going, President Trump!

In reply to by Darracq

MoreSun danepol Tue, 07/17/2018 - 16:56 Permalink

Yes bring back the Nurenberg Laws in full force. Yes Hitler has been proven right, time and time again. History will always eventually bear out the truth. And you murderous jew supemacists know it.

so-called israel allows no other but self described jews to become citizens, they murder/genocide Palestinians every day. Your in the process of expelling all blacks from your so called democracy, & built a giant wall.

All the meanwhile your tribe members in jewmerica gave us the 1965 immigration act and screamed "open the flood gates", you fight tooth & jew nails to stop the Republic from enforcing their immigration laws and from building the wall.

Remove all jew supremacists from all positions of power-NOW!!!

In reply to by danepol

lew1024 GoingBig Tue, 07/17/2018 - 20:24 Permalink

Is it the $400M in illegal contributions to Hillary's campaignthat Putin revealed that has upset you, or Putin's offer to cooperate with Mueller in investigating his own GRU?

Funny how those are NEVER MENTIONED in any of the legacy media coverage I have seen/heard.

And, btw, my previous characterization of NPR as 'a shitstain on the once noble profession of journalism' I now acknowledge was far too kind. Suggestions for a better are welcome.

In reply to by GoingBig

Creative_Destruct King of Ruperts Land Tue, 07/17/2018 - 10:23 Permalink

" The US fabricated evidence to start the Vietnam war and the US fabricated WMD talk on the second war in Iraq. US intelligence had no idea the Berlin Wall was about to fall. The US meddled in Russia supporting a drunk named Yeltsin because we erroneously thought we could control him."


It's amusing to me that the Leftist's NOW have a blind-faith trust in government, whereas during the Vietnam war, and at the start of the Iraq war the opposite was (justifiably) the case.

And remember, the Left was all OVER how we manipulated Russia into an Oligarchy:



In reply to by King of Ruperts Land

GeezerGeek Creative_Destruct Tue, 07/17/2018 - 11:19 Permalink

The war in Vietnam was well under way before the US got involved in any meaningful way. Recall that it once was called French Indochina, and that through the early 1950s the French were battling the communists there. The US began to get involved when the French had to surrender (keeping their losing record intact) at Dien Bien Phu in 1954.

Two subsequent events there stand out in my recollections of the era. One was Kennedy's coup (Nov. 1, 1963) against the leader of S. Vietnam, Diem. Diem was assassinated the next day. Kennedy only lived three weeks longer.

The second event, the one that resulted in the US being firmly attached to the conflict was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution (August 1964) that followed the alleged attack on a US warship by the military of N. Vietnam. That, many say, was a false flag orchestrated by Lyndon Johnson. We already had troops there as "advisors". The resolution opened the floodgates for more US troops being sent to southeast Asia.

Any assertion that the US created false evidence to start a war in SEA is bullshit - there is no better way to put it - and ignores the political situation between France, West Germany and the US in the years after WW II. That is not to say that evidence was not fabricated to get us heavily involved there long after the conflict began.

In reply to by Creative_Destruct