Doug Casey On Why Millennials Favor Communism


Communism is better than capitalism... At least, that’s what a growing number of young people in the U.S. think.

I wish I were joking. But a recent study from the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, a D.C.-based nonprofit, found that half of the millennials it surveyed would rather live in a socialist or communist country than a capitalist society.

And 22% of those surveyed had favorable views of Karl Marx… while 13% viewed Joseph Stalin and Kim Jong-un as “heroes.”

To figure out what’s behind this disturbing trend, I called Doug Casey…

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Justin: So Doug, about half of U.S. millennials would rather live in a socialist or communist country… What’s gotten into the youth?

Doug: The youth are being corrupted, and it’s more serious than ever.

I say that a bit tongue-in-cheek, however.

That’s because one of the two charges against Socrates when he was executed in Ancient Greece was corrupting the youth. Older people always think the youth are foolish, ignorant, lazy, crazy, and generally taking the world to hell in a handbasket. And of course many of their charges are, and always have been, true.

But as kids get older, they generally get wiser, more knowledgeable, harder-working, and more prudent. Nothing new here. The world has survived roughly 250 new generations since civilization began in Sumer 5,000 years ago. And it will likely survive this one too.

That’s the bright side. And, as you know, I always look on the bright side. But, on the other hand, the American university system has been totally captured by Cultural Marxists, socialists, statists, collectivists, promoters of identity politics, and people of that ilk. These people hate Western Civilization and its values, and are actively trying to destroy them.

Justin: How’d that happen? Don’t young people go to college to learn how to think critically?

Doug: When the average 18-year-old goes to college, he knows very little about how the world works in general. He’s got vague ideas he picked up mostly from TV, movies, and people who got a job teaching high school. They know roughly nothing about economics, government, or history. Worse, what they think they know is mostly wrong.

That makes them easy prey for professors with totally bent views to indoctrinate them.

It’s not so much that they’re taught inaccurate facts. There are plenty of “factoids” (artificial facts), of course—like the War Between the States (which shouldn’t be called the Civil War) was mainly fought to free the slaves. Or that Keynesian economics is correct. And many, many more. But that’s just part of the problem.

It’s not the factoids they’re taught. It’s the way the schools interpret actual facts. The meaning they infuse into events. The way they twist the “why?” of events, and pervert concepts of good and evil.

The real problem, however, is that, contrary to what you suggested a moment ago, they’re not taught critical thinking. Rather just the opposite—they’re taught blind acceptance of what’s currently considered politically correct.

Instead of questioning authority in a polite and rational manner—which is what Socrates did—the current idea is to prevent any divergent views from even being discussed. The profs are basically all socialists, and the kids tend to believe what they’re taught. Those views are buttressed by the other sources of information available to them—Hollywood, mass media, and government.

These bad ideas usually start with “intellectuals.” Intellectuals typically despise business and production, even though they envy the money the capitalists have. Intellectuals feel they’re not only smarter, but much more moral. That gives them the right, in their own eyes, to dictate to everyone else. That’s one reason why they’re usually socialists, and approve of a “cadre,” like themselves, ordering everyone else. Intellectuals naturally gravitate to the university system, where they’re paid to hang out with each other, be lionized by kids, hatch goofy ideas.

This has always been the case. But it’s becoming a much bigger problem than in the past.

Justin: How come?

Doug: A much, much higher percentage of kids go to college now than have ever gone to college in the past.

In the recent past, maybe five or a max of ten percent of kids went to college. These days, almost everybody goes. So a much higher proportion of the youth are being infected with memes that the leftists have put in there.

So yeah, some kids will grow out of it, and will realize that most of what they’ve paid an exorbitant amount of money to learn is nonsense. But most will reflexively believe and defend what they were taught in the cocoon. And I’m afraid those people now make up a big chunk of the U.S. population.

So yeah, I think the numbers that are quoted in that article, about how many kids think socialism is good, are probably accurate. And if they don’t think it, almost all of them feel it. Few know the difference between thinking and feeling…

Justin: Today’s universities aren’t just teaching bent ideas about politics and economics. They’re also dispelling insane notions on race.

For example, an anonymous student at Tulane University in New Orleans recently posted a sign that read “It’s okay to be white.”

Nothing wrong with that, right? Well, apparently the Tulane administration wasn’t pleased. Here’s an official response from Tulane’s public relations department.

We have no idea who posted these signs, but that person is obviously not speaking for Tulane University.

I got a chuckle reading that. But it’s a disturbing sign of the times. Wouldn’t you agree?

Doug: Yeah, it borders on the unbelievable. The insane, actually.

Most whites have been indoctrinated, both indirectly and directly, subtly and overtly, over the years. They’ve bought the propaganda that being white is bad. They believe Western Civilization is a bad thing…that white people have destroyed the world.

Even if they don’t want to believe it, because the concept is so stupid and so utterly contrafactual, they end up believing it just because they’ve heard it over and over. It’s very bad news across the board.

Justin: The mainstream media seems to be peddling these bad ideas, too. Wouldn’t you agree?

Doug: Absolutely. The memes that originated with intellectuals in universities have thoroughly infiltrated the mass media and the entertainment industry—places “thought leaders” gravitate towards.

And you’re getting no defense at all from so-called capitalists and business leaders. All they’re interested in is making money. And—absolutely if they’re wired with the Deep State—they don’t really care how they do it. They’re happy to work with and for the government. They self-righteously make charitable contributions to universities and NGOs, subsidizing the source of the poison.

So, there’s almost nobody to defend the ideas that have brought us Western Civilization. And—with the exception of a few anomalies like Taoism, yoga, and Oriental cooking—it’s responsible for about everything that’s good in the world. Without it the whole world would resemble Africa, or Cambodia, or Mongolia—not even today, but 200 years ago. Western ideas are things like individualism, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, science, rationality and capitalism. These concepts no longer have any defenders anywhere. They’re under attack everywhere.

Justin: This can’t be good for the economy in the long run.

Doug: No. It’s one of the reasons I’m generally bearish.

I mean, how can the markets be healthy when what’s left of the ruling class in the country actually hate themselves? When the middle class is collapsing? When political entrepreneurship is valued more than making money through production?

In fact, the economy and the markets are the least of our problems. The very foundation of civilization itself is under attack. The acceptance of destructive ideas is getting to be as serious as what we saw in Russia under the Soviets, in Germany under the Nazis, or China under Mao. More serious, since civilization is under serious attack in the U.S., which has been the bulwark for the last century.

So, excuse me for my bearishness, but I think it’s warranted.

Justin: Thanks as always, Doug.

Doug: You’re welcome.

*  *  *

As Doug says, civilization is under attack in the U.S. And this crisis is only getting worse by the day. That’s why Doug and his team recently released an urgent video that explains exactly what’s going on…and why it’s so important that you take action today. You can learn more right here.


HockeyFool God Emperor Sat, 12/02/2017 - 20:38 Permalink

Schools stopped teaching real history and started teaching how swell socialism and communism are.My nephew recently asked me, "What's so bad about socialism?"I said, I guess we'd have to ask some of the 100 million people killed by their own government in the name of socialism to find out.He had no idea what I was talking about.

In reply to by God Emperor

earleflorida overbet Sat, 12/02/2017 - 22:53 Permalink

what caused the 'red scares' in america?people of the world during the great depression 1929-1938 were pissed-off at capitalism causing so much hardship!many though socialism or even a communism hybrid of the two could be a better alternative to capitalism.history ryhmes... or does loss of confidence have anything to do with it when the Internationalist Money msters move money-in, and monet-out at their pleasure destroying any country at will .

In reply to by overbet

Dabooda earleflorida Sun, 12/03/2017 - 14:21 Permalink

You're on the right track.  Casey only tells half the story.  Communism is increasingly attractive to kids who are taught that communism is the opposite of capitalism -- and capitalism is perceived as being the system we have now.  But our present system has damn little to do with free markets -- it's actually fascism, where connected elites  use government to control and loot the 99%.  Millennials think:  if that's capitalism, then communism (which they have never experienced and know fuck-all about) can't be so bad.  They perceive only a choice of evils:  either the 1% effectively enslave the 99% -- or the 99% "redistribute" the wealth of the 1% however they please.  It's just a question of who gets to loot whom, to that way of thinking. Few people think in other terms:  that free trade is voluntary, and therefore nearly always delivers benefits to both parties in every trade.  Government-controlled economies, on the other hand, always devolve into power struggles over who gets to loot whom, and someone is always getting screwed.  Kids are taught the false alternatives of capitalism vs. communism, when the real alternative is government vs. free markets.

In reply to by earleflorida

GUS100CORRINA HockeyFool Sat, 12/02/2017 - 22:50 Permalink

Doug Casey On Why Millennials Favor CommunismResponse: The reason why ''Millennials favor Communism'' is much simplier than the nformation in this great article is suggesting.2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (KJV)11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In reply to by HockeyFool

Okienomics GUS100CORRINA Sun, 12/03/2017 - 01:09 Permalink

There you go.  God sends them a delusion then, for that delusion which he himself foisted upon them, sends them to the most horrific torture chamber ever conceptualised for eternity.  Really?  Who the HELL wants to associate themselves with such a demonstrably horrific deity?  I'll take Buddhism for $200 Alex.  Everyone chill, the world will survive just fine.

In reply to by GUS100CORRINA

Mr. Universe Okienomics Sun, 12/03/2017 - 03:02 Permalink

Fail.I think it helps if you read the reason why God sends them delusions.

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

I think of it as God as Popeye "That's all I can stands and I can't stands no more". These folks got every chance to see the truth, but rejected it. 

In reply to by Okienomics

PT GUS100CORRINA Sun, 12/03/2017 - 08:57 Permalink

Yawn.  You have no money.  You have no land.  If you work your guts out for fifty years straight and spend no money on food, clothing or entertainment then you might end up owning a house.  On which you have to pay property taxes forever.  Want a "higher income"?  Feed and clothe yourself for four years and take on $100k+ of debt.  You'll still be in debt for fifty years but in return you might have a fancier house.  Oh yeah, and now we have a "gig economy" too.  You might have a job today but we can't guarantee next week.  But go ahead, be a good little "Capitalist".  Becoz Communism is naughty and there is no other way.This shit is not hard.  Why complicate it?

In reply to by GUS100CORRINA

chestergimli HockeyFool Sun, 12/03/2017 - 07:05 Permalink

Socialism/communism, the idea that is, isn’t necessarily bad. It’s the Khazarian Talmudist Jews at the top who push the middle class down to the poor class that further enriches themselves. In addition, their destruction of the Christian religion which was brutal and their wholesale slaughter of innocent people to make sure that what they said was followed-in other words, a reign of terror. But that can happen in any ism society.

In reply to by HockeyFool

Endgame Napoleon HockeyFool Sun, 12/03/2017 - 14:16 Permalink

Many of the professors in math-related subjects and the hard sciences are not leftists, not in the South, anyway. I also think it has changed a lot since the late Eighties / early Nineties, when I checked out a book on Marxism in a leftist frenzy in an era [and] an area of the country when it was not at all cool, finding that I was the only student to check out the book since the year 1968, the only other time the book was checked out. Granted, I was in college a long time—eye roll—and did notice a shift in the mid Nineties toward these younger, social-justice-warrior professors. NONE of my middle-aged and older history or POLS professors could be put in that, nada, none.

Take into consideration the possibly that while many of us do, indeed, grow more conservative as life experience bridges the gap between theories learned in college / books and reality, the stagnant and falling wages of the last 30 to 40 years play a part in shaping opinions on political and economic systems.

There is an experience-based sense that [most] hard work is [unrewarded] in this Fake Capitalist economy. Young people can see it just as easily as older people. A lot of it springs from our pay-per-birth system of half socialism—our so-called “mixed economy”—but I think you can see that better when older.

And there is a difference between a communist political state and varying degrees of socialism in an economy. My professors taught us about that dividing line, the point at which economic socialism merges with political authority so much that it overrides individual freedom.

Better fight it. We used to have people doing that on the right [and] the left; there used to be a civil-liberties-focused wing of the Democratic Party. It is gone now, driven out by these identity politics thought leaders who do not believe in free speech. That is likely why colleges seem to be the promulgators of socialism, although we already have socialism promoters throughout the business world.

Maybe, a few of the more intellectual students are impressed, but the voices of professors are largely ignored in the larger society.

It is the rich and powerful CAPITALISTS who support socialism; that is why it is a growing force.

Employers endorse [socialism for some] because they want a workforce of part-time-worker moms with “somethin’ comin’ in” from government (if not a spouse), as one interviewer put it to me. They support socialism for some because it covers their employees’ major household bills—rent, groceries—so they do not need to pay them much, nor offer them regular hours.

In fact, the government-supported moms have an incentive to make less and to work fewer hours to stay below the income limit for welfare. I did not have any of that unearned income for womb productivity that enables many moms to work part time and for a pittance, hence the interviewer’s comment.

This support of socialism for some includes many big corporations, like the big-box store that used to hold classes, teaching single mom employees how to apply for welfare until challenged in the courts. The same wage-depressing dynamic applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, applying for welfare that increases with each child they produce after coming to America, with the income from a sole, male breadwinner counted against expenses to tabulate the benefits in their case.

What many college students do not know is that the corporate enthusiasm for applicants with rent and groceries paid by socialism-for-some benefits includes many categories of office jobs that used to have middle-class wages, enabling employees to cover rent without unearned income from spouses or government, like corporate back-office jobs and many sales-related jobs.

Socialism is present in this country not just in the form of 100%-free, non-contributory, means-tested redistribution schemes that provide monthly unearned income for high womb productivity through free rent, free groceries, monthly cash assistance, free electricity and nearly free daycare, but also through large, lump-sum cash checks at tax time—child tax credits between $3,400 and $6,318.

These people do not work very hard, college grads. They stay below the income limit for welfare by willingly working for very little pay and for very few hours, lowering wages for people without access to womb-productivity-based, unearned income, like most college grads.

But as unfair as it is, this not yet a communist [political] system that would strip you of your most basic rights to prop up the redistribution scheme, in which a few communist warriors somehow end up living in splendor in a system that is supposed to be about absolute equality of outcomes.

Older people always think that young people have no experience, but as someone who stayed in college for a long time and then owned a shop for a while, I ended up seeing a lot of young college grads, going through the scam, churn-mobile, high-turnover, part-time, temporary, pyramid-scheme, low-wage, 1099-gig job scene, just like me, an older college grad.

Say you’re a college-educated young person in a $10-per-hour insurance job without benefits that—your degree aside—required you to obtain four costly licenses. You cannot afford rent; it absorbs more than half of your pay.

Your job is one of the many high-turnover, pyramid-scheme jobs on offer in this half capitalist / half socialist economy. Many college grads are stuck in the [all-capitalist] side, while the womb-productive non college grads take the office jobs with lots of excused absenteeism for so-called busy working moms, benefits and equally low wages, boosted up by either spousal income, child support or layers of monthly welfare and tax-time welfare checks to reward them sex and reproduction in or outside of marriage.

You went through college, which is really just unpaid work, studying for test after test and jumping through a bunch of assignment hoops. Unless you majored in a few hardcore subjects with a decent chance of bolstering your job prospects, you ended up on the capitalism-un cushioned-by-socialism side of the economy, like the $10-per-hour, churn-mobile insurance job I am describing, although it is a softer version than most sales jobs in this industry, which are straight commission, with no benefits and lots of expenses.

You have little life experience and a memory heightened by a lack of overcrowding, possibly even increasing the impact of an experience when you are cold calling apartment complex managers, hoping to close some sales that might land you that rare, sporadic $300 to $500 commission check that the insurance [franchise] owner very occasionally hands out to people who meet quotas despite all the hyped promises.

You are in a comparatively nice, safe area of the city, one that could arguably be called the edge of the upper middle class. You sure cannot afford an apartment in this area, with your college degree and four licenses. Come to find out, you cannot sell insurance there. It is a subsidized, mixed-income apartment or single moms, giving them an alternative to the free-to-$35-per-month Section 8 housing in dangerous areas of cities. The part-time-worker moms get a pay-per-birth rent reduction that increases the more productive their wombs are.

You don’t work part time. You have to work long hours for your $10 per hour—your $20k—even after hours in some cases to cold call. But in your case, sex and reproduction out of wedlock has not led to the crucial womb productivity rewards, handed out by the Socialism For Some State in the form of many layers of freebies, including rent reductions for womb-productive employees and per-unit tax credits to increase profitability for the builders of these mixed-income apartment complexes.

So, you either suffer the indignity and lack of freedom of living with your parents or in a crappy, low-quality apartment in more dangerous area, sacrificing more than half of your monthly pay for the privilege.

When you read about socialism in books, you just don’t get the feel for it that you need. Fair it is not, certainly not even close to fair in the case of the non-contributory, means-tested, social-engineering freebies. That type of picking and choosing of poor people to favor in the economic system sure as *** is not worth sacrificing your freedom for if it ever overtakes constitutional governance in the political system.

In reply to by HockeyFool

Endgame Napoleon Creative_Destruct Sun, 12/03/2017 - 14:30 Permalink


But there is a neoliberal compromise.

The pay-per-birth Socialism For Some system in America yields different outcomes, partially due to the layering of monthly welfare and child-tax-credit welfare for part-time mom workers who stay below the income limits for welfare, partially due to the mom-dominated and absenteeism friendly workplaces across many job categories and partially due to all of the untraceable income from boyfriends, the kids’ grandparents, large groups of immigrants on welfare due to US-born children who live together and split expenses, etc. It is often the low-wage, [full-time] hard working INDIVIDUAL citizens (not “working families”) who get the crappy apartments that take more than half of their monthly pay, leaving them with little purchasing power.

Ahhh capitalism—sooo rewarding....when you combine low-productivity, part-time work with unearned income from government for womb productivity.

Not so rewarding if you just count earned-only income.

In reply to by Creative_Destruct

Uninvited God Emperor Sun, 12/03/2017 - 06:28 Permalink

"We should take out the line "in Germany under the Nazis" from the phrase"The acceptance of destructive ideas is getting to be as serious as what we saw in Russia under the Soviets," the rest of the article is more than OK."I thought the same thing. And it's especially annoying when he should know that Hitler and National Socialist Germany were fighting against the (((Communists))) and the world (((they))) wanted (the one he was criticizing):

". . . I consider that the immediate suppression of Bolshevism is the greatest issue before the World, not even excluding the war which is (s)till raging, and unless, as above stated, Bolshevism is nipped in the bud immediately, it is bound to spread in one form or another over Europe and the whole World, as it is organized and worked by Jews who have no nationality, and whose one object is to destroy for their own ends the existing order of things." - M. Oudendyk, 'A Collection of Reports on Bolshevism in Russia' - April, 1919

In reply to by God Emperor

kochevnik Uninvited Sun, 12/03/2017 - 08:15 Permalink

Hitler was deeply confused.  Disliked Jews but was Jew heritage himself, and moreover Rothschild.  And Catholic, so Jew's pet.  He could have become Orthodox Christian and shed his yoke.  Pity his hatred of Slaves blinded him to real enemy. Like any Jew he courted Arabs and Asians as Aryan and subconsciously hated whites. Fucking delusional

In reply to by Uninvited

besnook bamawatson Sat, 12/02/2017 - 19:31 Permalink

the oligarchs opened that can of worms themselves when they expanded the legal definition of imminent domain to cover commercial properties that benefit the community. i think it is hilarious that a commercial operation has to keep money losing stores open because closing them would jeopardize the financial wellbeing of another commercial enterprise that benefits the community. lol.

In reply to by bamawatson

Sid Davis amadeus39 Sun, 12/03/2017 - 01:13 Permalink

Slavery produces an abnormal (unfair in your thinking) distribution of wealth.  Just look at a Southern Plantation before the civil war.  The majority of the population on that plantation had no wealth, while the owners had almost all of the wealth.  There were a few hired overseers who comprised a middle class.  Whenever you see a skewed distribution of wealth it is strong evidence of lack of freedom. A long view of history shows that when freedom was at its greatest, wealth distribution more closely followed a bell curve distribution, and when slavery was at its greatest wealth distrutribution was skewed with the ruling class (slave owners) having most of the wealth. Periods with little freedom were periods of general human suffering, economic stagnation, and little scientific progress. Read Rose Wilder Lane's book, The Discovery of Freedom.Your belief that capitalism (free markets) causes the evils of today is your own delusion.  It is the control of markets by government that has produced the evils you see, and that is not free market capitalism, but rather a mix of corporatism and socialism, using laws to give the few advantage instead of using the law to insure free market competition.If you don't like the results of living on one big government plantation, being a slave to the state (the collective)  and truly care about the welfare of people, then maybe you should abandon your reverence for more slavery in the form of socialism, and wake up to the value of freedom, independence, and justice.  

In reply to by amadeus39

edotabin Sid Davis Sun, 12/03/2017 - 11:10 Permalink

@amadeusSocialism preys on and spreads based on one thing: insecurity.The majority of people will always follow the path of least resistance. Socialism makes them feel safe. They will never admit that, of course, so they become radicalized and resort to attacking and destroying everything contrary. Being hollow on the inside, it becomes a matter of self-preservation and this is why they defend their "ideals" and seek to destroy everything else with such vigor. This is also the reason they end up falling so hard and also the reason they cannibalize themselves.Those at the top attacking capitalism falsely promote the belief of a more fair and equitable outcome. That is the disguise. They want to restrict your independence and increase reliance on the system. Before you know it, you are consumed. It is a sick, sick game. I use the words insidious and pernicious to describe it. 

In reply to by Sid Davis

PT kochevnik Sun, 12/03/2017 - 09:36 Permalink

So how does someone acquire their initial Capital?  Hard work?  Profit?  Savings?Newsflash!  Competition squeezes margins.  The QUICKEST way to acquire CAPITAL is through DEBT.  Name one large company that does NOT carry debt.  (Some say Amway does not carry debt, so pick another one.)Newsflash 2!  You can work and save and eventually convert the savings into Capital but in the meantime everyone else BORROWED money i.e. went into debt and now THEIR CAPITAL is working hard to pay for itself while they're working on the next venture.  You, on the other hand are still working your guts out, getting fuck-all in return, trying to save the tiny bit left over which gets totally demolished in a couple of week's time when something essential in your household breaks.*Pick a business.  Any business.  How much are the start up costs?  What are the returns?  What are the expected savings?  Now pick the next business up the ladder.  What are the start-up costs?  What are the returns?  What are the savings?  How long does it take to get the next step up the ladder?  Savings or debt?  Savings or debt?  hmmm, let me think.Minimum wage worker decides, "Fuck this, I think I'll open a deli."  How long does it take him to save up for a deli while he's on minimum wage?  Or even for a deposit???  What are the in-between steps he has to go through if he wants to open a business as simple and "stupid" as a deli?  (In theory it is not rocket science. In practise I have no doubt that experienced deli-owners can give you thousands of reasons why 'rocket scientists' go bankrupt)  Real world Capitalism THRIVES on debt.  Even if we had a gold backed money system instead of fiat, Capitalists would be scrambling to BORROW money so they can acquire Capital because it saves them an ABSOLUTE SHIT-LOAD OF TIME.  Why work for and save pennies so you can acquire Capital when you can borrow to get the Capital that makes Dollars and then you can pay off the debt with Capital-Earnt Dollars instead of Labour-Saved pennies???(Unfortunately I was well into my thirties before I truly understood the difference between Good Debt and Bad Debt.  I still hate all debt but at least I now know exactly what Good Debt is all about and why it won't go away in a hurry.)* re "something essential in your household breaks.  Back when I was a minimum wage slave, WALKING to work, the hole in my boot got so big that the steel cap fell out.  For some strange reason I had a bit of rope and a screwdriver in my bag.  I used the screwdriver to dig a couple of holes into my boot, re-inserted the steel cap and used the rope to tie my boot back together.  No I did not waste money on booze or drugs and I had ZERO debt.  Yes, I supposedly live in a "first-world" country.  But yeah, if only we worked harder then we too could be multi-national Capitalists.  Shoulda worked harder / smarter / taken more risks bullshitbullshitbullshit fucking bullshit.  errr, but now I am drifting from the topic of this comment. 

In reply to by kochevnik

Vageling wise_owl_says... Sun, 12/03/2017 - 20:35 Permalink

You mean they get to "kick the can" down the road now? What a fucking legacy! Everybody whines. Nobody wants to do the inevitable. Which is stay out of debt! Yeah... That's how banksters control you and own you. Less is more. Nah, needs that big teevee you can't afford to impress folks you don't care about with money you don't have! Absurd! 

In reply to by wise_owl_says...